I don't seem to remember struggling with getting the fuel pump carrier out of the tank, but then again, I did it so many years ago. I also found using a block of wood instead of a screwdriver for removing the lock ring was better and less chance of damaging it with a screwdriver. Interesting that nothing was untoward when you took everything out. Did you check the fuel hose between the fuel pump and the top of connection?

I didn't have a piece of wood to hand, but I did have a rubber mallet and a big screwdriver

There was nothing untoward inside the pump/swirl pot with the possible exception of the hooting jet. It's possible I'm looking at two separate problems here... It would seem - I need to get the fuel system diagrams out and study them - pressure should be maintained in the fuel rail by the injectors not being closed, by the pressure regulator being closed by default when the pump is off, and logically a non-return valve somewhere.

I did blow down the pump output while I had it out and I recall it being closed - but not sure whether that was a hard block or not. Need to fish it all out again, perhaps... or there's always https://www.ebay.de/itm/255655863775

It does seem logical that the non-return valve is at the pump motor, but when I removed the go and return pipes, there was no fuel flow from the pipes though there was some hissing from the pump outlet. Which suggests perhaps the regulator?

More thinking required.

Neil

Neil,
I wonder if one of the feed pipes in the tank has a split, as when I changed my pump out earlier this year mine was split???

Cheers Jamie

Isn't that what I just said on the previous page?

yep, my bad

Confined to barracks for an hour at Chatsworth Jamie

Upon removing the pump for a further inspection, it was obvious that I could in fact blow down the outlet pipe and hear air escaping within.

Separated the internal pipe to the pump and couldn't blow down it, so no leak there; it had to be at connection where that corrugated tube connects to the pump outlet (at the top of the unit, not the actual pump end). That seal is complicated because there are a couple of ribs that run vertically outside the sprog and no apparent recess for them in the corrugated tube; it makes getting a good seal a bit tricky. However, managed to get the tube clamped so that I was unable to blow down it.

Bear in mind I obviously can't generate enough hot air - in spite of 33k posts - to push five bar down there, so it's possible that there is still a leak under full pressure. That said, a couple of morning starts worked on the first turn of the key and didn't spend a few seconds either initially churning on the starter or spluttering badly until the fuel was flowing, so that's hopeful.

Blowing down the return feed produced the same delightful hoot as previously, so I'm assuming that's how it's supposed to work. I wonder if the fuel starvation was actually the pump sending so much of its output sideways rather than through the plumbing that there simply wasn't enough flow in the return to allow the swirl pot to swirl, hence things not working once the tank level got below the top of the pot?

We'll see.

Neil

A couple of gratuitous pics of the swirlpot and the cap-removal-tool; not sure if the 20vt design is similar to the 16v but the Fiat clip at the top of the corrugated hose is visible.

Yah, mine's been replaced in the past and it has a jubilee clip, not so happy. The pump system is the same though it's possible the pump is uprated for turbo models. I think there's still a slight leak, but certainly not as bad as it was.

Things seem to be looking up. The car has been starting ok in the matter of the fuel pump, but has had an intermittent fault where the start clunks but doesn't spin. Could be any number of things - bent shaft has been suggested, or poor/worn contacts in the solenoid, or worn brushes/commutator in the motor itself.

But given the difficulty of replacing the beastie, I only want to do it once so I've just ordered a new replacement. https://www.ebay.de/itm/284631335742 seems not a bad deal at under eighty quid.

I still don't know if the low-fuel level starvation is cured by the fuel pump fix but I expect it to be. The fuel is down to the level at which it started on the trip over; I'll run it a little lower as a confidence check.

Neil

That's good news! I have tried freeing up starter motors in the past and it is never a permanent solution. You must be spoilt for choice on the spares when you're in continental Europe!

I dunno about spoilt for choice; half the difficulty is discovering that the damn things are called!

Useful info for 16vNA though: the HSN/TSN numbers - which ebay uses to identify your model and see what fits - are 4001/675 (/676 for 16vt)

Neil

A baby starter in its nest, waiting to fledge and fly free!

Looks brand new - I can't see any blood, sweat or tears on it yet.

It is brand new, fresh at some point from the Bosch Fiat Coupe Starter Factory! If the weather behaves, I'll spin it up tomorrow and if it spins, in it goes.

To replace the starter on a coupe is a pain in the proverbial. Even if you have a ramp (please can I have a two-poster for xmas?) it's a pain; doing it the ground is worse... oh, and as I recall it's slightly worse for the 20v than the 16v. But don't let that discourage you! There are minor detail changes between the 16 and 20 but the idea is the same.

Obligatory safety warning: Ideally use drive-up ramps for the front wheels. If they're not available, then jack up the car as high as you can and support it carefully under the front hard points with jack stands. Don't try and jack it all at once; it will rock and potentially slide from the stand when you try to do the other side. A couple of inches each side, rinse and repeat. Be absolutely certain that the car isn't going anywhere before you go under it.

• Test that the new starter actually spins by clipping jump leads to the case (negative) and to the larger threaded bar (positive) on the solenoid. Use a crocodile clip lead or a suitable screwdriver to the smaller threaded bar from the larger. At that point the solenoid should pull in and the motor spin.
• Remove the battery, negative terminal first please!
• (optional, but gives access to the top bolt of the starter and lets a little more light on the job!) Remove the battery tray and inner. There are four 13mm bolts on the tray to the sidewall and the bottom one - below the tray - needs only to be loosened off a couple of millimetres as its in a slot. On a 16v there are two 10mm nuts that hold the coil and amplifier to the tray; they'll need to come off to let the coil dangle. At the back of the tray are three cable management clips which need to be released to let the cables out. At this point the starter is very nearly almost visible from above; follow the fat red wire.
• Working underneath the car: First open the plastic cover over the power leads and remove the 13mm nut with the main power cable and the 10mm nut with the solenoid drive. Try not to lose them; the new starter may not have them supplied. Move the cables out of the way.
• There are three 13mm bolts which hold the starter in. One of them is bottom left, if you're looking along the starter (call it eight o'clock), and is visible from below. The others are not visible; one at eleven o'clock and the last at two. This last one may be easier to access from the top; depends how bendy you are and how long your ratchet extensions are. I did all three from below.
• With the bolts out, the starter motor is held by a hollow dowel pin which may either stay in the block or on the starter. Getting the motor out takes some juggling but on the 16 it will come out downwards and to the car's right. It may also come out upwards but I'm not sure.
• Reassembly is a reversal of the above, noting the position of the dowel and possibly removing it from the starter if required.
• Optional - discover that the 16v starter you just bought is in fact a 20v starter which although it will fit the holes and wiring is about 15mm shorter in the nose department and will not engage with the starter ring. Begin an argument in German!

Today I learned that the German for 'starter gear ring' is 'Anlasserzahnkranz'

Neil

A comparison of the two starters. 20v on left, 16v on right.

The 16VT one is also different to the 16v. I forget exactly what though.

The part numbers on the original Magnetti Morelli 16VT starter motor are E70R-14/12 and 63223436.

Neil. you already have a more modest Howto on this, would you like Kelv to replace it with the above?

It probably wouldn't hurt. This is perhaps more safety conscious.

Well, it's two steps forward and one step back...

• The fuel pressurisation/starvation thing appears to be resolved; I've run the tank down to an eight with the warning light on and no problems have been apparent. I'm still a little unsure about the clamp in the pipe in the pump but it seems to be working at the moment.
• In spite of having the starter refurbished, it still has the same problem as previously: the solenoid pulls in but doesn't always spin the motor. Which suggests strongly that the contactor in the solenoid is unhappy after thirty years... you'd think nothing was built to last anymore
• The speedo has been removed and a couple of fractured solder joints (as expected) on the mounting pins resoldered. Obviously I won't know if it sticks until it does, but first signs on a speedy test run were hopeful.
• The electric window controller is puzzling. It was sensitive to the power leads being in just the right place... can't see any issue with the supply or connector, so pulled the unit out (it's under the dash, not under the right seat as per the 20v) and disassembled to check for any breaks or other issues. Nothing obvious, so resoldered all the high-current pins on general principles... tested fine with just the PCB floating under the dash; fine with the PCB back in the box just hanging, bolted back in place and it's sensitive to the position of the power leads again. Still thinking about this one.

The refurbished starter having repeatedly failed to operate, it has been replace by a further second-hand part, which has so far not failed. It's clearly more worn than mine but it's a weight off my mind... I was getting concerned that I might have had to push-start the car all the way home later this month.

Neil

Poor stuff from the reconditioned job

Will they refund?

Don't know; probably won't bother. The recon is new bearings and bushes and such in the motor, hard to see what they can do with a sealed unit contactor which isn't available.

The chap in Sunningdale/ Virginia Water who refurbished my starter motor a few years ago said that he fitted the last one available that he knew of.

Yeah. Though you might expect that with 90% of the coupes being sold over here, there should be proportionally more spares...

I've seen a couple of dissections on youtube of similar solenoids, and the crimped construction suggests that angle grinders and brute force are required to disassemble (though the internals are obvious once you're there). Perhaps next year I'll dissect it, but for now, it's starting and that's the main task.

So, having got here in one piece, I'm coming back on Wednesday. Here's what a couple of months' bimbling around has revealed:

• Tired starter motor contactor: sometimes required multiple attempts before it would spin the starter. Replaced with used spare and possibly to fix the original next year
• Loss of pressure in the fuel line: down to a poor seal in the fuel pump at the top of the flex hose. That's improved but will need further attention since it sometimes runs roughly for a couple of seconds while the pressure builds. The associated fuel starvation at low tank levels, because too much fuel was leaking from the pipe to allow the swirl pot to fill properly, appears to be resolved so the leak is probably much less now, though still present
• Speedo sticking at circa 60mph: resoldered faulty joint in the speedo and not seen since
• Windows not winding: looks like a faulty earth return at (one of) the connector(s) to the winder motor control box. Perhaps a break where the cable is crimped or perhaps just a poor connection; working at the moment so another one for next year
• From the smell, it appears that there's a slight weep of gearbox oil onto the exhaust (and possibly also engine oil from the rocker cover). Not enough to worry about yet but next time Joe has it on the ramps we might be able to see something - drive shaft seal perhaps? I'll need to clean a bit of the drive before we end our rental
• Odd electrical issue: occasionally when using the windscreen washer jets the motor stops... I've had a look at the diagrams in the past and can't see anything obvious, so not worrying about it
• The dipped beams are bloody awful; mostly looks like discolouration inside the light units. Temporary solution: only drive in daylight
• Headlining flopping around in the breeze; fortunately the sunroof restricts the amount a flop and I have no back seat passengers

The car will be making an appearance (though sadly I won't) at the Birmingham show in November in stunning - if temporary - new livery!

Neil

Can be a poor contact on the switch lever, I had a similar issue and also the intermittent first position sometimes doesnt work. After changing the wiper motor assembly (I had one for spare) and nothing changed, I discovered that If I pull gently the lever towards the steering wheel (or press towards the windshild) it works.

Yes, that's my thought: that the 'wiper on' bit disconnects sometimes when the switch is pulled to trigger the wash. However, the self-park in the motor itself should continue in that case, and it clearly works normally when not washing.

Neil

Maybe the washer triggers the intermittent mode and in that mode the self-park is not supposed to work (maybe self parking is just related to normal wiper activity, and intermittend is just 1 move + relay time repeat that 1 move). I had the same wiper stopping when washing, plus intermittent not engaging on 2 different motors, so it must be a "feature".