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Re: What Car
[Re: samsite999]
#1619179
20/04/2018 08:15
20/04/2018 08:15
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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I do like the xk, and the M5 would be lovely but ongoing costs would be stupid. Merc is something I haven't looked at but I'm liking the look of the sl350 The X150 XK is a fairly reliable car and if you stick to the non-R, which is still a rather nice car, parts prices are very sane and easy to get - many shared with S-Types and XFs of the same era. Mercedes and BMW pars for equivalent models is very likely to be noticably higher and whether they are more reliable is very debatable. The later SL though is reputed to be pretty solid - is this the one: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2002/Town mpg on any a V8 is not great though whatever the specs say
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: What Car
[Re: samsite999]
#1619263
22/04/2018 08:13
22/04/2018 08:13
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057 Southsea
Gunzi
Club member 189, Former Club President
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Club member 189, Former Club President
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
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Mk1 Focus RS
Fiesta ST with Mountune upgrade
Mini Cooper S Works
S2000
Impreza of some description
Volvo S40 2.5T
Giulietta Cloverleaf
Last edited by Gunzi; 22/04/2018 08:21. Reason: More cars
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Re: What Car
[Re: MeanRedSpider]
#1619300
23/04/2018 07:54
23/04/2018 07:54
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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I’d be utterly astonished if a 2006 Merc isn’t more reliable than a 2006 Jag. It is a strange concept I agree but for example compare the types of faults and their frequencies here: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2002/?section=goodhttps://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/jaguar/xk-2006/?section=goodThis type of conclusion is common in buying guides for the XK. All car models have spurious faults which are not common, however, the XK is a surprisingly well built car with few common faults and generally quiet forums because they don't often go wrong. More recent Jaguars are nowhere near as bad as their reputation and German produced cars a nowhere near as good as their reputation. The reality is that the general standard is now pretty high with most of the stuff still screwed together in Japan being the most reliable.
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: What Car
[Re: neil_r]
#1619329
23/04/2018 18:34
23/04/2018 18:34
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852 Cambridge & Cotswolds
MeanRedSpider
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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I’d be utterly astonished if a 2006 Merc isn’t more reliable than a 2006 Jag. It is a strange concept I agree but for example compare the types of faults and their frequencies here: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2002/?section=goodhttps://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/jaguar/xk-2006/?section=goodThis type of conclusion is common in buying guides for the XK. All car models have spurious faults which are not common, however, the XK is a surprisingly well built car with few common faults and generally quiet forums because they don't often go wrong. More recent Jaguars are nowhere near as bad as their reputation and German produced cars a nowhere near as good as their reputation. The reality is that the general standard is now pretty high with most of the stuff still screwed together in Japan being the most reliable. Here though you’re comparing faults from a 2002 (Dark period) designed Merc with a much later designed Jag. As before, the updated model (2006) update is much better. Since 2008, in back-to-back Mercs, I’ve not had a single fault on any of my modern Mercs - actually, not quite true - the lid of the little (ashtray-style) cubby hole on my SL wouldn’t always open properly without a prod - fixed under warranty (they even collected the car from 150 miles away and left me a courtesy car). I’ve no doubt Jag have improved - frankly they couldn’t get a lot worse. My folks had one of the last XJSs and saying that it was a piece of rubbish would be charitable - it probably went wrong every 200 miles. My dad, who I’ve hardly ever seen cry, was in tears with it. It’s hard to get worse from there. But to go back to my original advice - avoid anything that has anything to do with the 2000-2002 period from Merc - they totally lost the plot. But they recognised this and spent billions fixing quality. This would be a fairer comparison R230 with the later model Jag - pretty short of issue reports https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2008/?section=good
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Re: What Car
[Re: samsite999]
#1619347
24/04/2018 07:02
24/04/2018 07:02
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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In the price range we are looking at - a bit over 11k, there are few of either car and the SLs seem to be the pre 2008 facelift, so I think the comparison is not that unfair.
Comparing a 1970 XJS is frankly completely pointless though. Mercedes in those days were some of the best built cars available. Jaguars on the other hand were close to the worst at any price from any country.
Today all mass produced cars are built intrinsically in the same way from similar parts from the same bunch of sub-suppliers, they just look different. We expect Mercedes to build good cars. They have the scale and the resources to do so. That expectation is not there for Jaguar even though they have also spent billions improving their standards and their products are similarly reliable these days.
Most of my friends and colleagues have German cars and I hear of a lot of problems. They don't seem to work like clockwork, especially the more affordable stuff. Things wear out quite fast. Design problems that the manufacturers won't fix. Expensive dealers that can't sort problems. Hence, I don't see that made in Germany always means better made. It is a great "brand" but the rest of the world has actually caught them up.
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: What Car
[Re: samsite999]
#1619373
24/04/2018 18:24
24/04/2018 18:24
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852 Cambridge & Cotswolds
MeanRedSpider
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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The XJS was being built until 1996 - that’s only 6 years from the start of R230 SL production - not such a pointless comparison - and only 10 years from the start of the Jags we are talking about. To go from the shocking piece of rubbish my parents bought to something Merc quality in 10 years is a stretch. My brother has had Discoveries from the same stable and there has been a slow improvement from the early really poor stuff to today where it is much better. The other thing is that the SL at least isn’t built in the numbers that I’d consider as mass produced in the accepted sense of the word. They simply aren’t produced in big numbers. Mine has aluminium body panels and carbon fibre reinforcement. And, whilst I’m sure Mercedes have accountants like most companies, Mercedes design standards are way better than any car I’ve worked on. In fact, where Mercedes went horribly wrong in 2000 is that they tried to make cars like other manufacturers and simply didn’t know how to - they were crap at it. I can’t speak much for the modern A Class - they’re incredibly successful for Merc - but at that end of the market money is tight. The Japanese thing is also a bit of a myth in the luxury end of things. What the Japanese excel at is designing cars that are deliver just enough and no more. They find a way of doing something and won’t change it unless they’ve found something better. This is fabulous if you’re buying a real mass product. All of that said, I had a series of Imprezas and they were every bit as unreliable as any car I’ve owned. Parts were criminally expensive. Service was superb - way way better than Merc. I’m not a “German” fan but I am a “luxury-end” Merc fan. I’m a professional mechanical engineer working in consumer electronics (and now automotive too ) and would like to think (at least) that I know quality engineering when I see it.
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Re: What Car
[Re: samsite999]
#1619399
25/04/2018 07:13
25/04/2018 07:13
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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I think we are arguing around the subject. LR products still come up low in reliability reviews even though they are very popular these days. The complete JLR activities are not yet as good as they could be. Before Ford, Jaguar had little money and had to make models last a very long time. The last XJS's might have been built in 1996 but the first were built in 1975 and that era was not the British motor industry's best - poor design and production. The next XK was based on the XJS platform and its build quality is also poor and troublesome in some areas and that car, while nice enough, was not competitive even at launch.
The actual point was that the 2006- XK is not comparable to the old Jaguars. It was a clean-slate design using up-to-date techniques and materials, very competitive with the good cars of its era and to say that it will be crap because it is a Jaguar is just not true. Take a closer look and you will see that they are an excellent second hand buy as they are well made but because of Jaguar's general reputation, cheaper than they should be.
The XK was also built in small numbers 57k in about 9 years vs. the R230's 169k in around 9 years, also all aluminium construction, relatively simple with mainly trusted parts.
The Japanese still seem to screw things together better or their local component suppliers are better. Looking through our "TüV" reviews, Japanese produced cars, small cheap stuff or Lexus, etc., were almost always at the top end of the results. Cars from Japanese companies produced abroad were not generally better than any other competitor, even though there were one or two exceptions.
Some of our friends work at Mercedes. Some say there isn't a better car manufacturer, some only have problems with their cars (they get big discounts so all drive Mercedes cars). Making a one-fits-all statement for any manufacturer is not likely to be correct or fair. Hence my point about the XK being well worth considering, whatever one thinks of JLR reliability in general.
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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