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New Kevlar clutch
#1584243
10/09/2016 00:07
10/09/2016 00:07
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
OP
My life on the forum
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OP
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Posts: 1,725
London
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Hi all. Just an FYI on something I'm working on that might interest you: My Coupe has a rather unique issue; it has one of the highest torque outputs of all road-legal Coupes (over 400 lbsft), but it is probably the only one that is driven daily! My Coupe's torque output is way beyond any organic clutch, including the Helix item. So up until now I've had to use paddle clutches. I used to use CG Motorsport items, but I sacked them off after I had to take the company to court for trying to palm off two shoddily built clutches on me in a row - and good riddance too: I started making my own custom paddle clutch setups with much better results than any of the trash peddled by CG Motorsport. However, paddle clutches are still a nightmare in London traffic! So the search for a more traffic-friendly clutch that could handle big torque led me to this bad boy. Custom-made to my own specification: Got to fit and test it first, but if it works it will be the first ever Kevlar clutch rated to 400+ lbsft (approx. 500 bhp for 20VTs & 440 bhp for 16VTs) The Coupe might be getting long in the tooth now, but there's no reason why it can't still have nice new things!
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1584267
10/09/2016 09:08
10/09/2016 09:08
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digitalundgrd
Unregistered
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digitalundgrd
Unregistered
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Don't you have issues with the stock pressure plate with this high torque output?
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1584301
10/09/2016 22:12
10/09/2016 22:12
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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How much would one if these cost out of curiosity?
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1585661
29/09/2016 01:37
29/09/2016 01:37
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
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A little update on the kevlar clutch: I fitted it last weekend, along with a freshly ground flywheel - my old homebrew paddle clutch didn't tear up the flywheel like previous CG Motorsport clutches, but it still needed grinding. Straight out of the box, the kevlar clutch felt great - no judder and a nice low biting point. I expected the clutch to have a heavy pedal, like typical uprated organic clutch, but the pedal felt almost standard. The nicest immediate feel I've experienced out of any make of Coupe clutch I've experienced yet. I've only put 160 miles on it so far. Kevlar requires around 300-400 miles to bed-in so I'll have to wait a couple more weeks or so to unleash the full 400 lbft on it
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1585686
29/09/2016 14:24
29/09/2016 14:24
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
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I can't wait to see how it gets on at 400lbs/ft!
£700+ odd for a Helix is simply ridiculous now so a cheaper, better alternative would be very welcome!
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: Hoops82]
#1585934
04/10/2016 02:40
04/10/2016 02:40
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
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Eager to hear about the new clutch kj, also at what power setting have you found a fresh ish standard clutch start to slip a bit. Well, I hit the 390 mile mark today so I've started giving it some full load - and holds the clutch holds it perfectly. My Coupe is dyno proven to make 400 lbft and the power also hits very aggressively - far more aggressively than a 20VT with similar torque. If I'm not mistaken, 400 lbft is also more torque than any other 16VT in the UK too. So if the clutch works on mine, it will definitely work with any 20VT over 500 bhp and literally any 16VT to date! A standard Valeo clutch is officially rated to 270 lbft and I've personally found that a new, freshly bedded one will slip at 280 lbft. But once it's slipped once and overheated, it will end off holding less torque than even the max rating.
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1586044
05/10/2016 17:12
05/10/2016 17:12
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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That's a VERY good price for a kevlar / carbon clutch. I paid three times that for a twin plate carbon one after getting fed up with paddles offering crap driveability, and lasting a few minutes.
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1586132
06/10/2016 20:45
06/10/2016 20:45
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
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Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Is 400lb torque the max limit on this? Anyway of making it handle more?
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1586155
07/10/2016 01:35
07/10/2016 01:35
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
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Been testing the limits of the clutch over the last few days. I wound boost up to 1.8 bar which equates to around 435 lbft in my car. I found that the clutch holds just fine in 4th, but slipped in 3rd when it hit maximum warp at 4500 rpm. My Coupe produces a huge amount of midrange torque - much more than any 20VT I'm aware of. Also, more than some 16VTs. Hence mine accelerates very aggressively at full boost (front end goes light, torque steer, brown pants, etc). So evidently the 3rd acceleration was a bit too aggressive for this clutch. But in 4th the clutch grips just fine. So, I'd say for 20VTs, with their lower midrange torque and smoother acceleration, this clutch will handle 400-430lbft (well over 500 bhp) no problem at all. For 16VTs I'd say 400 lbft (around 430 bhp) is the very limit. Even so, there may be more performance to be had: The clutch pedal is quite light - lighter than a Helix organic clutch. So I reckon it may be possible to use a bit higher clamping force. I'll speak to the manufacturer and see if it's possible to increase the clamping force enough to handle very aggressive acceleration.
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1586211
07/10/2016 15:54
07/10/2016 15:54
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,289 spain
crgracing
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1586579
12/10/2016 20:40
12/10/2016 20:40
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PhoB
Unregistered
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PhoB
Unregistered
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Good to hear some developement.
I was scared to try this yellow kevlar friction material few years ago. Been told that is designed for wet clutches.
From picture seems cover still uses factory spring. We measured several fiat pull clutch covers, and there is three "strenght" types. And till today i found only one clutch manufacturer, from italy, which uses cover with different spring. But it has just 10-15% more claping force(over best OEM) and manufacturing is cheap compare to price it cost. Helix from picture uses OEM spring. But also is rated very safe.
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: ]
#1586810
15/10/2016 23:38
15/10/2016 23:38
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
OP
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
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London
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Latest update: I've put a further 100-odd miles on the clock and the clutch now holds absolutely rock-solid at 1.6 bar (about 400 lbft). I'm very pleased with this; definitely the nicest feeling Coupe clutch I've ever used. These kevlar clutches sit nicely in between organic clutches for stock/mildly modded road cars and paddle clutches for full-on track/race cars. Good to hear some developement.
I was scared to try this yellow kevlar friction material few years ago. Been told that is designed for wet clutches.
From picture seems cover still uses factory spring. We measured several fiat pull clutch covers, and there is three "strenght" types. And till today i found only one clutch manufacturer, from italy, which uses cover with different spring. But it has just 10-15% more claping force(over best OEM) and manufacturing is cheap compare to price it cost. Helix from picture uses OEM spring. But also is rated very safe. It's fine for dry clutches too. Kevlar is fairly commonly used in other modified makes of car, but as usual we Fiat lot are lagging behind on technology! I've been told that Kevlar can glaze over if subjected to a lot of stop-start traffic, which can make it slip a bit until you give it some hard driving to remove the glaze again. I live in London, which is entirely stop-start traffic! but I haven't found this to be a problem; I've been able to give it full power straight after being stuck in long traffic jams. This clutch uses oem springs too, with the pivot point modified to increase clamping force. I spoke to my manufacturer last week. I have a memory like a sieve, but I'm sure they said 10%. Anyway, they said that they can increase the pressure a bit further, no problem. So that's good to know if you have a real beast of a Coupe
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: crgracing]
#1586881
17/10/2016 01:59
17/10/2016 01:59
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
OP
My life on the forum
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OP
My life on the forum
Joined: Feb 2008
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Great to hear about this new info Kj No problem. Glad you find the info useful - and glad to be able to offer the Coupe fraternity a new much-needed product The torque rating of the stock Valeo clutch is 274 lbft (371 Nm). The clamping force on the other hand, I'm sure my manufacturer said he measured it at something like 1000 psi
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1588808
17/11/2016 00:02
17/11/2016 00:02
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
OP
My life on the forum
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London
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Okay so nearly a month since my last post and the clutch is well and truly bedded in. It now grips in all gears without even a hint of slipping. Yet it's still as well-mannered as any organic clutch in London's finest traffic jams. Suffice to say I won't be using paddle clutches on any of my road cars ever again My manufacturer has to order in the kevlar clutch material specially from the States. He got the material for my clutch along with his regular order of other parts, which meant I had to time my order with his. However, he says he can make a special order if he can build a batch of at least five clutches. So I'm thinking of doing a Group-Buy on the forum. Special FCCUK-only price of £480 + postage. I haven't finalised a regular price yet, but it will be around £550. Post a comment on this thread if you're interested. If there's enough interest I'll set this up
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: Nigel]
#1588886
18/11/2016 03:13
18/11/2016 03:13
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
OP
My life on the forum
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OP
My life on the forum
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725
London
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If you fancy another guinea pig, I might be up for it. My last Helix clutch has juddered badly since it was fitted, despite swapping flywheels. The clutch action is also getting too heavy for my ageing legs....
It needs to handle up to 400 lb-ft and about 480bhp - do you think it's up to it?
Edit - just re-read the OP - seems it will cope - kj, can you please give me an honest appraisal of how the new clutch performs in relation to the Helix organic? Yep I'd say it will definitely cope with your 400 lbft Coupe, no problem. 20VTs don't come on half as violently as 16VTs! Try it, I think it will solve all your clutch/aged leg interaction problems Absolutely honestly, I like it more than the Helix. Helix are nice, well-made clutches but fairly typical of uprated organic clutches; quite heavy pedal (though not the worst I've experienced by a long shot!). Often they have a bit of judder. Not half as bad as a paddle clutch, but still can be a bit annoying in traffic. It also has that same feeling I always disliked about Coupe clutches, in that it feels like the clutch fully opens in the first third of pedal movement and for the other two-thirds you're just wasting leg movement! My Kevlar clutch, on the other hand, has none of that. Absolutely zero judder - ever. Also, the bite is much lower. Not too low, but I'll bet the first time you pull away you'll bog down because the clutch has engaged before you've revved up the engine enough! The pedal on my kevlar is only slightly heavier than standard. In fact, when I first tried it I was worried that it wasn't going to provide enough clamping force for my engine. But that has since proven itself not to be a problem.
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1588982
19/11/2016 21:56
19/11/2016 21:56
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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This sounds like a great option for my Dads Plus. His clutch is fine for now but not sure when it will give up, once it does this will be the first port of call, sounds very good.
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: New Kevlar clutch
[Re: kj16v]
#1588998
20/11/2016 09:11
20/11/2016 09:11
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Great question. Also look forward to hearing the answer.....
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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