I had some work carried out at CountryCruising last week including a clutch, before I had this stuff done though I was chatting to Joe. He was showing me the work he was doing on front sub-frames.

Basically, making them stronger via the strategic welding/stiffening joints. He said, "do you want one?"

Cutting a long story short I said yes.

Now, after picking the car up last week, I can say with conviction that this has literally transformed the car. The difference to the handling was felt immediately.

So what are the said differences'?

(a) Car feels 100% firmer
(b) Turn in is far more accurate
(c) Through the turns the front end feels very stable
(d) The car seems quieter - less shaking when driving on our [censored] roads
(e) The car feels a lot more stable in general

I do not usually spout off about modifications, but this one I feel I must - It is literally like I have had a complete suspension overall (shocks springs et al).

I HIGHLY recommend this mod.

Thanks go to Joe.

Joe, how much do you charge to weld the sub frame??

ive done this on my bravo, but not really had chance to test it

did joe stitch around the whole edge or just weld where the obvious gaps are?

(i see if i can reserect the thread previous thread)

Ninja

Good Work Joe - the front of the coupe flexes a great deal under stress (was responsible for me cracking several alloy rad's). so stiffening it up can only be a good thing!

One problem with this kind of mod, as inadvertently pointed out by suba is that the coupe does flex quite alot, you are not dealing with a problem you are simpley moving it.

More body flex? proberley.

wouldnt mind getting this done if its reasonably priced!

I don't quite understand that Steve? The car feels stiffer and more secure, to my eye's this = a result

The shell on the coupe is the part of the car that would flex the most. so stiffening up an already very stiff part of the car (the subframe) is not going to stop flex it is going to put more through the body. Unless you have a structual roll cage i do not see the point in this kind of mod.

You may feel the difference (for the better) in that case great but feel does not always mean the car is preforming better.

It is very easy to ruin the balance of a car by stiffening up sections, a stiff car *may* provide more feel but that doesn't mean more grip.

If this is incoherent sorry but i've been up for 48hours writing my disertation

Steve

May i ask what mas been done to stiffen the sub up cheers.

What subject is your dissertation on?

Motorsport

sorry never read the question computer simulated crash analysis....

WOW - Would a strengthened front sub-frame reduce damage then

No, more than likely just transfer the energy to the occupant

Is it a lot of work to swap the front subframe over ?

This sounds like an interesting mod.

Hi Patch.I'm intrested to know if you already had a lower brace before fitting the new subframe (I presume the plus has a top strut brace as standard)?
I found I enjoyed driving my coupe much more after adding a top and bottem brace.

Althought I understand SteveG's argument,surely if your car feels better to drive,then thats the important thing on a road car as opposed to a track car (where your looking for ultimate grip).
If not then we would all be driving round on very very low profile tyres (ouch).

Also, if you're moving flex away from components that effect the steering geometry I would have thought that could only be a good thing.

I've got my coat ready
as I prepare to be shot down in flames.

£££? Sub-frame off job?

Right I need to clarify some answers here as I think this thread has got a little out of hand.

Firstly it's doesn't cost a fortune to change one of these if you've got the tools, know-how and a twin ramp.

Secondly yes it stiffens the front up in a major way but it transfers this to the front suspension, sure the shell is going to flex, that's what they do as the design of the car allows for this movement, and what about top or bottom strut braces.

Answers to the welding questions, these are fully welded but stitched as not to over heat or warp the frame. All gaps are kept the same, we don't hammer the back edge together like some we've seen so the dimensions and edges are not effected other then being TIG welded together, pics at bottom.

Now I'm sure you're all thinking how much, well fitting is under £100 and it's a great opportunity to get the ARB bushes changed at the same time.

Price for the subframe? Well we haven't quiet finished calculating the costs as we're in discussions with the metal finishes at the moment about either having these galvanised or powder coated. These figures will obviously effect the costs but I was thinking I'll leave this open so that you could choose which finish you'd like, as it's underneath and it's not a visual component personally I'd go for galvanised as this finish is a far better protection in comparison to powder coating, frames will also be sold on an exchange basis so you get some money back

The pics below show Phil's subframe fitted, the finish was done with a spray can as Phil wanted it fitted with his new clutch so we had to make do on this one.

wait a minute, I think I see something on one of those pictures....hang on, yes......it's dirt, yes dirt how can that be?

OMG, how can it be, Dave, Dave, OMFG - I'm off out to put the car on ramps and I don't care if it's dark!

Back to the thread then.....Anyway Joe, you have one happy customer, who has the mod fitted is happy and is not surmising nor drawing conclusions from fresh air

Never mind the front subframe Joe, how about the rear one with bushes, my MOT is due this month and my rear bushes are a failure for sure

I'd like to make a roadtrip to UK and visit Joe@CC and Flea, to properly sort my Coupe :-)

Stiffening the subframe isn't the same as "stiffening" the front eg. uprated ARB, stiffer springs and shocks; so it doesn't upset the "dynamic" balance and weight transfer while cornering. It just limits the changes in the suspension geometry - better conditions for the suspension to work as intended???

Ok but what are you on about? I would to see how this would help retain loaded wheel geomerty. Have you looked at the subframe design recently.

Roll bars do not affect the kinematic behaviour of a suspension, it only has an effct on total roll stiffness

When did i say or imply anything refering to weight transfer, and for your information springs do NOT decrease load transfere, the only way you will increase that to a noticable degree will be widening your track width, as few of the other parameters that dictate it would be possible to alter significantly on a road car.

The premise of your argument is based on wrong information, . So thanks for trying to take my post apart, please try again.

Anyway

I was stating my case not saying it was wrong, i installed a massive anti roll bar to the rear of my alfa 145 i prefered it didn't mean it handled better.

If it does "stiffen" the front up as much as is said i can't see it doing any thing but try to induce understeer.

Steve

its a well worth mod for the money and il be ordering 2 (vis & LE) when Joe gets around to making more.

Im having one fitted along with a 6 speeded box conversion this weekend up at joes, so il add to the thread monday after some vigorous testing.

Ok, there must have been some misinterpretation... I've got pretty good idea how a car suspension works, and think stiffening a subframe is a worthwhile mod. I'm not going to elaborate my point of view, as it would continue "our" discussion indefinitely, and doubt either one of us would change opinion...

Don't get me wrong, I hold no grudge and would like to talk to You over a pint of beer, but (me) being far off it's not possible :-)

No problems Marko just a bit of a discussion nothing ment by any of it

I got a bit defensive as i was putting over my point of veiw and got nothing but "no its good" with no techincal reason except yours and the OP. How can people sing its praises with no back up.

I looked into this with a vehicle dynamics expert as i was planning on getting one after speaking to Joe but decided againt it.

If you don't want a technical discussion put it in coop chat not in the handling section.

As I will say again its how the car feels to you!

Spot on Steve. As an ex-uni lecturer of 10 years I know the only way to make a decision/draw a conclusion is to

(a) Research
(b) Consider
(c) Evaluate
(d) Draw your conclusion

It is clear that in this case we have both done the same and reached different conclusions. I stand by mine and you stand by yours. Everyone's happy

No worries - it's what forums are all about

Well done guys on this mod ,it looks a good idea.
Can i just say,with regard to Galvanising or powder coating.
It has to be galvanising everytime.
I have some expeirience with powder coating.And it simply wont stand up to the job.With bolting onto any powder coated metal,it creates a wear point,then the coating will let in water.
Powder coating is great for a finish that is just looked at or touched.Anything that moves/flexes its a big no no.
Teflon spray coating is a possible other choice ,but cost would be an issue i think.
I will prepare to be corrected.

I seem to remember it was JohnS who started all this, and lets face it, he's got some knowledge of what works and what doesn't, I have been considering one of these, but am impressed by the debate about it, will continue to check this thread to see what anyone else has to offer.

i think that the wielding of the subframe is a good idea because the suspension geometry will change less under stress.. any type of mod that keeps the suspension were it should be is a good thing.... if not why replace the bottom arms when they are worn