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Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512226
02/01/2008 22:47
02/01/2008 22:47

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



We are all talking about the same thing here. I just used the baro table as a basic example. You see I have never seen the software used to map the 20VT so it is difficult for me to really say what it can and can’t do.

I’m guessing the software you have allows you to change the maps on the fly via an eeprom emulator as long as the data algorithm is known you should know where you are in the map at any given time and it should be pretty simple to change the tables.

What else can this software allow you to do that could benefit e.g can you change the scale of the AFM to prevent it from maxing out early? (I have a hardware modification idea about this that I would like to try out but i need to be able to adjust the software too) If you have the software I wouldn’t mind in having a go at my ECU. You can PM me a link? The ONLY reason I would go to aftermarket is because I want to map my own car.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512509
03/01/2008 03:41
03/01/2008 03:41

T
TipoBoy
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TipoBoy
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T



I'm having the Autronic system fitted, hopefully this month. Will report back later with any useful information.

John

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512727
03/01/2008 16:57
03/01/2008 16:57

H
hapaman
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hapaman
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H



Since years I'm looking for a DAMOS File for the 20VT Motronic. In this file it's discribed where and what every bit in the map does. This file can be imported in most well known tuning softwares like winols. Usually this files are just available from bosch or fiat.
Otherwise a chiptuner must know what he's changing ore must have the right equipment to read out where all the sensors having access to the map.

Daniel

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512849
03/01/2008 19:15
03/01/2008 19:15

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



DAMOS file \:D That’s exactly what I’m after too.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512942
03/01/2008 21:44
03/01/2008 21:44
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
I need some sleep
JohnS  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
There were two versions of DAMOS used dependent on the year of your motor (the chip is different, although the rest of the EMU is the same more or less)


Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: JohnS] #512955
03/01/2008 21:58
03/01/2008 21:58

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



Yes your right there are two files for the 20VT the older one and the later one. What did they change?

Older one software no: 1037358539
Uses DAMOS8-08-0107

Newer one software no: 1037358892
Uses DAMOS8-08-0208

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512978
03/01/2008 22:34
03/01/2008 22:34
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
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JohnS  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
maps are located in different places and the program is different. According to the ECU contents it is a change from v14 to v15 DAMOS.
Earlier 20VTs apparently had a little more aggressive power delivery and maybe a little more power out the box ;\) . All custom chips (gtec, gtec2, novitec, digitec, reddot, squadra, PTs stuff) have been built off the later chip to my knowledge.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: JohnS] #513964
04/01/2008 23:56
04/01/2008 23:56

G
Gralecoupe
Unregistered
Gralecoupe
Unregistered
G



Nobody has mentioned the Emerald ECU yet, I always thought that this looked like a good package. The guy that's behind it (Dave Walker) wrote a book about it, it comes with a CD of maps and instructions and he RR tunes all the cars with it in Lincolnshire. It has some kind of initial self learning ability with it and can run different maps too (for different levels of boost or different fuels, trackday settings etc), which all added up makes it look like a good all round package. The only downside is that it needs additional sensors and his RR only goes up to 400bhp.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #513986
05/01/2008 00:30
05/01/2008 00:30

H
hapaman
Unregistered
hapaman
Unregistered
H



Sorry for offtopic reply, but if someone has spare time to compare the maps between DAMOS V14 and V15, I can supply the V14 Version. My coupe was originally deliverd from factory with V14 Version.

Daniel

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514122
05/01/2008 03:12
05/01/2008 03:12

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



I didn’t mention this earlier because to be honest I forgot about this one and when I last looked at Emerald it was fuel only. Their new K3 does both and seems to look ok even though the software looks very basic. I don’t know if it can run the 5 cylinder properly because you need the ECU connected for all the software features to be unlocked but it looks pretty promising I will need further investigation.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514133
05/01/2008 03:27
05/01/2008 03:27

S
suba
Unregistered
suba
Unregistered
S



Sorry - but I've been down that route already. Spoke to Dave Walker and the Emerald units will not do the 5cyl engine....maybe life would have been easier using a 16vt base.....it's a damn shame as the emerald units looked very good at a very good price. °\(

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514157
05/01/2008 04:11
05/01/2008 04:11

G
Gralecoupe
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Gralecoupe
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G



Ah, I didn't know, that's a shame -thanks for the info. I wouldn't swap a 20VT for a 16VT engine, a slight downgrade IMO, it's a great engine.

(Ducks for cover from Beggars and the 16v crew) \:D

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514221
05/01/2008 12:00
05/01/2008 12:00

V
Vas
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Vas
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V



unfortunately, as it has been mentioned before, that's an area that older engines excel... And judging by the number of 20vt powerplants around, the models/period that have been used (officially) I doubt it will get any better for you lot.

[and I'm not going to comment on "downgrades" either]

V.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514264
05/01/2008 14:45
05/01/2008 14:45

S
sediciRich
Unregistered
sediciRich
Unregistered
S



Emerald will run a 5cyl with distributor, but not 5 coil packs, as you need 5+ ignition outputs, most.. how can we say 'club' level ecu's only have 2 ignition outs eg omex 600. I think that the stumbling block for many ecu's, 5 ignition amps.

RIch

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514296
05/01/2008 16:32
05/01/2008 16:32

T
TurboJ
Unregistered
TurboJ
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T



 Originally Posted By: sediciRich
I think that the stumbling block for many ecu's, 5 ignition amps.

RIch


Actually the Emarald has 6 coil drivers so it can run the 5 pot the problem is that the crank sensor fires at 270BTDC (odd crank angle) and the software has not been changed to accommodate this. Also both spark and fuel needs to run in sequential mode.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514307
05/01/2008 16:58
05/01/2008 16:58
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
I need some sleep
JohnS  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
 Originally Posted By: hapaman
Sorry for offtopic reply, but if someone has spare time to compare the maps between DAMOS V14 and V15, I can supply the V14 Version. My coupe was originally deliverd from factory with V14 Version.

Daniel


They're very different - map locations are in different places and everything. The only way you could relate the two is reverse-engineer both programs and spot the common procedures/functions (fairly easy with the right software) and then it wouldn't give you much either I don't think

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514624
06/01/2008 00:24
06/01/2008 00:24

N
nyssa7
Unregistered
nyssa7
Unregistered
N



 Originally Posted By: sediciRich
Emerald will run a 5cyl with distributor, but not 5 coil packs, as you need 5+ ignition outputs, most.. how can we say 'club' level ecu's only have 2 ignition outs eg omex 600. I think that the stumbling block for many ecu's, 5 ignition amps.

RIch


Rich

The Motec M48 only has two ignition outs, but on the kappa these are connected to a double and a triple expander giving 5 outputs so the k can run coil packs

But knowing what I've learned over the past three years, I'd lay out more upfront and go for a Motec M600/M800 which copes with 5 cylinder engines out of the box

Trevor

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514627
06/01/2008 00:33
06/01/2008 00:33

S
sediciRich
Unregistered
sediciRich
Unregistered
S



was going to mention that trev, but wanted to considerthe cheaper end, as the motec plug ignition multiplier stacks up and low end ecu's cant do that.

But if you're going to change yours.......

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514652
06/01/2008 01:20
06/01/2008 01:20

N
nyssa7
Unregistered
nyssa7
Unregistered
N



no need to change, got it working alright after a fair bit of effort, a glitch or two in the Motec algorithm, etc

M4 will work perfectly fine on 4 cylinders although I could use a cheap one of those if one turns up for the Y10

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514659
06/01/2008 01:27
06/01/2008 01:27

S
sediciRich
Unregistered
sediciRich
Unregistered
S



I could do with something with data log, theres been a few omex 600's on ebay but dont seem to sell, so Im a bit stuck with it.

Rich

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #514812
06/01/2008 06:26
06/01/2008 06:26
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia Offline
My life on the forum
Scuderia  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
I have a EMS Stinger 4424 which is only an entry level ecu. Still, you get 11 load points (most have only 6-8) 4 ignition and injector outputs, a data logger and it can run a wide band O2 sensor. Pretty good ecu for the money, More than adiquate for my race car anyway.

The EMS 8860 is their flagship ecu. It has all the features of the stinger and more, 8 ign and 8 inj outputs. variable load points etc. Compare it to an Autronic or Motec for the price.

http://www.enginemanagement.com.au/cms/

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: Scuderia] #519376
11/01/2008 20:16
11/01/2008 20:16

L
Lars_DK
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Lars_DK
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L



I have bought a Vems EMS! It has about 32 outputs. Can run up to 8 cylinders COP (And is compatible with 20vt coils), sequential injection, TRUE knock control. It has built in WB controller and EGT controller, and uses Megatune. This system is really great, and is more or less opensource like Megasquirt. Just a lot more advanced!
I got the system for about 450£ with WB sensor, EGT sensor and everything else needed to fit on my 20vt. Including 55pin Bosch connector so i can make the ECU box just like a std. Bosch ECU, so it just plugs right into the factory harness. Oh and it has a built in boost controller to!
http://www.vems.hu

I will make a post in here when i have received the goods, so i can keep you guys posted with details and pictures. Ofcourse this is a somewhat advanced, and not something you just plug in and drive away. This is tuning from the very start, but i like the learning experience and the help from the "Wiki" (forum) on vems.hu has some pretty talented guys to help if you are lost... Which i probably will be at some time!

- This system is also used on the Audi S2's which has 3 trigger inputs... Not many ECU's can handle this system, but the Vems is quite popular amongst the Danish Audi guys (I dont know how big Vems is in the rest of the world? It's Danish made).

Last edited by Lars_DK; 11/01/2008 20:22.
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #519432
11/01/2008 21:23
11/01/2008 21:23
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
I need some sleep
JohnS  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
 Originally Posted By: TurboJ
 Originally Posted By: sediciRich
I think that the stumbling block for many ecu's, 5 ignition amps.

RIch


Actually the Emarald has 6 coil drivers so it can run the 5 pot the problem is that the crank sensor fires at 270BTDC (odd crank angle) and the software has not been changed to accommodate this. Also both spark and fuel needs to run in sequential mode.


I am suprised that is a a limitation - normally you would just shuffle the firing order along until you get in range of the ECU as a workaround to that. So it is wired up that the second firing cylinder is thought of as the first in the ECU and the first becomes the fifth.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: JohnS] #519813
12/01/2008 05:25
12/01/2008 05:25

T
TurboJ
Unregistered
TurboJ
Unregistered
T



 Originally Posted By: JohnS

I am suprised that is a a limitation - normally you would just shuffle the firing order along until you get in range of the ECU as a workaround to that. So it is wired up that the second firing cylinder is thought of as the first in the ECU and the first becomes the fifth.


Yes been there and done that and it don't work. Well not with DTA anyway. The sync between the cam and cranks becomes very strange and the signal keeps jumping and not giving a true five cylinder tacho signal. I wouldn’t like to try this on another ECU. If it doesn’t truly handle 5 cylinders at 270BTDC then why try and trick it. In theory moving the firing order to start on the next cylinder that is in the software range should work but in my case it didn't. Even PT and DTA couldn't sort it out so the end result was that they wanted me to change the trigger wheel.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #520431
13/01/2008 03:16
13/01/2008 03:16

S
sada1000
Unregistered
sada1000
Unregistered
S



 Originally Posted By: Lars_DK
I have bought a Vems EMS! It has about 32 outputs. Can run up to 8 cylinders COP (And is compatible with 20vt coils), sequential injection, TRUE knock control. It has built in WB controller and EGT controller, and uses Megatune. This system is really great, and is more or less opensource like Megasquirt. Just a lot more advanced!
I got the system for about 450£ with WB sensor, EGT sensor and everything else needed to fit on my 20vt. Including 55pin Bosch connector so i can make the ECU box just like a std. Bosch ECU, so it just plugs right into the factory harness. Oh and it has a built in boost controller to!
http://www.vems.hu

I will make a post in here when i have received the goods, so i can keep you guys posted with details and pictures. Ofcourse this is a somewhat advanced, and not something you just plug in and drive away. This is tuning from the very start, but i like the learning experience and the help from the "Wiki" (forum) on vems.hu has some pretty talented guys to help if you are lost... Which i probably will be at some time!

- This system is also used on the Audi S2's which has 3 trigger inputs... Not many ECU's can handle this system, but the Vems is quite popular amongst the Danish Audi guys (I dont know how big Vems is in the rest of the world? It's Danish made).


Good for you. That´s what I ordered for my coupe \:\)

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #520536
13/01/2008 15:23
13/01/2008 15:23

L
Lars_DK
Unregistered
Lars_DK
Unregistered
L



sada1000: Have you gotten around to fitting and tuning it? I'm pretty excited - never done such work before, so should be lots of "fun"! \:o

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #520542
13/01/2008 15:36
13/01/2008 15:36

S
sada1000
Unregistered
sada1000
Unregistered
S



No mine will be not fitted until engine rebuild is finished. I don´t know whats the install going to be like... Are you gonna try and fit it yourself??

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #520995
14/01/2008 12:36
14/01/2008 12:36

L
Lars_DK
Unregistered
Lars_DK
Unregistered
L



Yeah im gonna start fitting it within the next couple of weeks... Gonna tune it myself on the road with the WB and EGT! On a freshly built engine, so i'm hoping for ~350hp on the 440cc injectors i've bought. Dont know if the gta clutch will cope though, but since its a bravo the weight isn't as high as a coup, so maybe it will! Otherwise i'll have to turn it down a bit...
But installing the Vems is gonna take a long time - and especially getting the idle, timing and fuiling right when tuning.

Last edited by Lars_DK; 14/01/2008 12:37.
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #521011
14/01/2008 13:41
14/01/2008 13:41
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,293
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
Ex El Presidente
Begbie  Offline
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,293
Sandhurst
Lars - How are you going to detect for knocking on the engine?


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: Begbie] #521644
15/01/2008 03:10
15/01/2008 03:10

L
Lars_DK
Unregistered
Lars_DK
Unregistered
L



It takes some configurating, but there is a built in Knock controller in the Vems... It utilizes the two knock sensors on the 20vt, and will only retard timing on the cylinder that is knocking.
But there is alot of work to getting it tuned just right, because you have to measure the Hz which knocking occurs etc. So its not something i will count on when tuning the car... Will probably be using a dyno for WOT, so i can have a look at the power figure. Knocking will give a performance drop, so should show there. But in the end i will probably go for a pretty conservative ignition map, and a bit on the rich side for fueling, just to be safe.

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