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Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: Scuderia] #509858
29/12/2007 21:49
29/12/2007 21:49

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sumplug
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 Originally Posted By: Scuderia
At the end of the day how many safety feaures do you want or need. I dont have any safety's whatsoever. I dont even have an oil temperature gauge. Im perfectly content to race like that. I know the car pretty well and experence does count for something.


How do you know how hot your oil is running on the track? If it gets too hot, it will rob power Would be nice to keep the oil around 85 degrees.
Your braver then me.

Andy. \:\)

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510120
30/12/2007 04:23
30/12/2007 04:23

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BlackBeast
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You lot running the standard Bosch ECU that want to datalog, why not use one of the innovate products such as the LM1 or DL-32?

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510161
30/12/2007 05:48
30/12/2007 05:48
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
 Originally Posted By: sediciRich
 Originally Posted By: Scuderia
At the end of the day how many safety feaures do you want or need. I dont have any safety's whatsoever. I dont even have an oil temperature gauge. Im perfectly content to race like that. I know the car pretty well and experence does count for something.



Hardly a great philosophy steve, I have a coupe side repeater on a 25psi oil pressure switch, and a shift light, you need those 2 things. In all I have a rev counter, oil pressure and temp (so I can judge if the cooling circuit is ok), water temp (you could lose water system cooling an not know until its too late) and a fuel gauge, plus those 2 lights.


Agreed. I was trying to get a point across. how much safety do you need? Its all peace of mind at the end of the day.

If an ECU goes into safety it will insantly loose power or you will know something is up. Time to stop, you dont need a boost retard IMO. Motronic does have that function anyway. Boost will drop to actuator pressure under safety. A lot of aftermarket ecu's wont do that or even have knock loop control. It comes down to how well they are setup in the first place. I make sure everyhting is on the safe side, as safe as possible.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510258
30/12/2007 15:47
30/12/2007 15:47

R
Redd
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Redd
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 Originally Posted By: Gralecoupe
I would say the Mitsubishi Evo or the Imprezza are suitably complex cars, you can get a Motec which plugs in and runs them out of the box


sorry but no. japanese cars - even the latest ones - are nowhere near as complex as european cars. we have very competent motec tuners here who can install and tune evos, scoobies, skylines in the dark with one hand tied behind their backs. give them a 5-yr old alfa and they dont know head from tails. the latest bosch motronic systems are just too complex. read up on the internet about unichip users trying to install them onto newer gen german/italian cars - many complain of the stock ECU fighting the unichip and putting the car in safe mode.

only some of the very latest jap cars - like the nissan 350Z - are starting to get as complex as european cars. the 350Z is also notoriously difficult to tune.

redd

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510266
30/12/2007 16:05
30/12/2007 16:05
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Posts: 17,366
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So - because there may be people watching this thread trying to make a decision on which way to go - lets vote on the best form of ECU

It depends on your application, clearly. However, we are considering Coupes here, so lets assume the application that currently applies to 100% of Coupes, i.e. road use (can't think of ANY 100% track Coupes)



ECU Choice
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 30/12/2007 16:05
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

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Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: Nigel] #510269
30/12/2007 16:08
30/12/2007 16:08

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13ad13oy
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13ad13oy
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Deleted


Sorry just read Nigels post properly...



Nigel are you still resetting your ECU often, and if so why is that?

Last edited by 13ad13oy; 30/12/2007 16:24.
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510287
30/12/2007 16:37
30/12/2007 16:37

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suba
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suba
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S



 Originally Posted By: BlackBeast
You lot running the standard Bosch ECU that want to datalog, why not use one of the innovate products such as the LM1 or DL-32?


Can you go into some more detail on this please? \:\)

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510291
30/12/2007 16:41
30/12/2007 16:41

S
suba
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suba
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S



 Originally Posted By: sumplug
 Originally Posted By: Scuderia
At the end of the day how many safety feaures do you want or need. I dont have any safety's whatsoever. I dont even have an oil temperature gauge. Im perfectly content to race like that. I know the car pretty well and experence does count for something.


How do you know how hot your oil is running on the track? If it gets too hot, it will rob power Would be nice to keep the oil around 85 degrees.
Your braver then me.

Andy. \:\)


Without datalogging it would not make much difference to me unless I had audible warnings set up etc. as despite all the best intentions the only gauges I end up looking at on track are the rev counter and the water temp, unless there's someone in the passenger seat that can help out.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510295
30/12/2007 16:44
30/12/2007 16:44

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13ad13oy
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I'd agree with that too, I'd rather watch where I was going if I was going fast, any more than a glance is too long....

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510306
30/12/2007 16:56
30/12/2007 16:56

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h2ypr
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h2ypr
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 Originally Posted By: suba
 Originally Posted By: BlackBeast
You lot running the standard Bosch ECU that want to datalog, why not use one of the innovate products such as the LM1 or DL-32?


Can you go into some more detail on this please? \:\)


http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTS.php

Bottom of the page. I was considering getting some of them, as the only sensor i don't have now is EGT. Would need to buy the rpm convertor to make sense of all the readings, but it would be a good piece of kit!!

Ross

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510316
30/12/2007 17:07
30/12/2007 17:07

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13ad13oy
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You have the xd16 Ross? Will get one rebuild time methinks

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510319
30/12/2007 17:09
30/12/2007 17:09

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h2ypr
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h2ypr
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Yeah i have the xd16 with the lc1 wideband controller.

Ross

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510368
30/12/2007 19:02
30/12/2007 19:02

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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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 Originally Posted By: suba


Without datalogging it would not make much difference to me unless I had audible warnings set up etc. as despite all the best intentions the only gauges I end up looking at on track are the rev counter and the water temp, unless there's someone in the passenger seat that can help out.


Its true, honestly couldnt tell you what the running oil pressure was in mine, as long as the yellow light's off its all good... When I took my ARDS test it was my first time on track, finished the session and realised didnt look at the dials even once!!

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510371
30/12/2007 19:04
30/12/2007 19:04

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nyssa7
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nyssa7
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 Originally Posted By: sediciRich
..finished the session and realised didnt look at the dials even once!!


That's what straights are for

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #510545
31/12/2007 00:49
31/12/2007 00:49

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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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not a lot of them at 3 sister trev, but now yes a quick look down. Or in the kappa's case dont look!! ;\)

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511023
31/12/2007 19:47
31/12/2007 19:47

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TurboJ
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TurboJ
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 Originally Posted By: sumplug

I am worried that with a motronic, you rely on an external boost controller. It is the speed the ECU switches to safe mode that saves your engine. I could not trust a boost controller.


That is absolute rubbish. Both ECU's use an external boost controller. The aftermarket uses an AMEL valve which is a basic boost controller it works the same as a separate boost controller. There is plenty of time as the speed the ECU processes far quicker than an engine will ever run.

 Originally Posted By: sumplug

Motronic has not got enough setting points to perfect the ignition and fuelling, so somewhere its compromised.


So how big is the fuel and ignition table then? From that comment one can assume you have see the mapping software for the Motronic?




Ok I feel I am able to make my comments now. As many of you know I had tried out DTA and that went seriously wrong due to the main fact that it could not properly run a 5 cylinder I won’t go into details as I have mentioned it many times in other threads.
I’m currently re-building my engine due to the DTA F**K up and it was built incorrectly by WDR. I won’t go into detail here either.

Anyway aftermarket vs Live map:
My personal opinion is that the live map is cheap and a really good choice as the OE system for the 20VT is very advanced and does an excellent job for people. The reason why the live is cheap e.g £450 is because it is not being fully mapped. Most of this has been done by Bosch/Fiat and is spot on e.g compensation tables, cold start maps, cranking maps etc. All that really is being changed in the map is the fuelling and the ignition plus a few others. There is nothing wrong with this as it is the logical way to map this type of ECU and the results are great and it keeps the features of the ECU e.g knock control, CODE, EVAP.

Problems with live map:
The problem I find is once you need a certain amount of power you start pushing that system too far. But where do we draw the line between ditching the OE and going to aftermarket? Let’s take the 400BHP+ plus cars for example. To run these properly there are two major floors I find with the OE. There are the injectors and the AFM. The AFM maxes out and is mapped to maximum boost pressure. So it could be fuelling the same for 1.3Bar and 1.5Bar. As you can see this causes a problem of running rich when not on full boost. The other thing when using bigger injectors the pulse width has to be changed to accommodate for this. That will throw compensation maps out for example battery voltage compensation map will have to be changed and so will the cold start map and cranking maps, transients maps etc. To change all these maps is a task in it’s self and you only really get two chances per day to get the cold start map right. Changing these maps may or may not possible depending on the Live map software but the bottom line is that this task will certainly cost more than £450. It is far easier to keep the original injectors and up the fuel pressure and scale up the map as a percentage as fewer values will have to be changed. I think this is cheating as personally I don’t want to push the duty cycle above 85% and go up on the fuel pressure and use other tricks to keep the cost down as I feel it can cause problems over time. To get the OE running perfect you may end up shelling out loads of money and could be cheaper in RR time to get an aftermarket mapped by someone who knows that system well too.

Aftermarket:
With the aftermarket system EVERYTHING will have to be setup properly which is the problem as to do a PROPER map from scratch is very time consuming usually about 30hours+. The other problem is that you have to find a system that can keep as many features as the OE plus more to justify the change. Now we all know that Motec is tried and tested but has anyone tried any other systems? Well I looked at most and the conclusion is:

DTA P8: Works but needs a custom trigger wheel and can’t run sequential injection, cold start map is odd and it don’t use an idle control valve plus mapping software is very limited. This system is utter crap I would avoid.

MOTEC: Tried and tested works well with many features but damages your pocket.

KMS: Can work but would needs a custom trigger wheel and don’t have enough AUX’s to run the VVC, RAD fans, WI.

DTA new model: I wouldn’t go near it due to the experience I had with the P8. I would advise anyone to steer clear of this system completely. I wouldn’t try it if they gave me one for free.

Megasquirt: Very cheap lacks many features probably couldn’t run our engine yet but its getting better so watch out in 2008.

Autronic: Haven’t really tested yet but the feature looks the tits it should easily run our engines probably better and cheaper than Motec.

OMEX710: I’m currently investigating this system as I plan to use it. It has many features and will work extremely well with our engines. With plently of AUX for WI, twin fans, NOS etc...

Conclusion:
If money is no object and you’re aiming for high power then seriously consider the aftermarket as it will be a far better map. As Begbie said tuning is not cheap. The live map works and is a great compromise for money but is NOT perfect for higher powered coupes certain aftermarkets are far better than the OE. I am still undecided however I am still edging towards the aftermarket side even though I got stung with the DTA because I want to be able to map my own car rather than pay somebody every time I want to make a change, plus I feel my map will be better as my motto is if you want something done properly you gotta do it yourself.
I have so much to say on this subject I could write pages on this.

Now my problem is do I live map my ECU at PT for £450 or do I buy the OMEX for £600 and wire it in myself and map it for free \:\)
I will happily test the OMEX 710 and post my results as long as I am able to borrow the RR for a few days ;\)

Thanks for reading \:\)

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511055
31/12/2007 20:48
31/12/2007 20:48
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
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Haslemere, Surrey
I think the answer is "keep it simple" \:o


997 C4S
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511164
31/12/2007 23:17
31/12/2007 23:17

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BlackBeast
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BlackBeast
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 Originally Posted By: h2ypr
 Originally Posted By: suba
 Originally Posted By: BlackBeast
You lot running the standard Bosch ECU that want to datalog, why not use one of the innovate products such as the LM1 or DL-32?


Can you go into some more detail on this please? \:\)


http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTS.php

Bottom of the page. I was considering getting some of them, as the only sensor i don't have now is EGT. Would need to buy the rpm convertor to make sense of all the readings, but it would be a good piece of kit!!

Ross


Thanks Ross, i forgot about the LMA3, which is what i want to use (not the DL-32 which is more expensive) along with the LC1. Good thing about these bits of kit is that they are MTS compliant, meaning you can use a number of XD16 gauges to show some of the data channels that you want to see live (Boost, AFR, EGT etc), or you just use your laptop. You can also connect the LC1 into the system as an external sensor and datalog that along with the others (4 internal, instead of the 5, as you'd be using 1 external port).



Last edited by BlackBeast; 31/12/2007 23:18.
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511196
01/01/2008 00:25
01/01/2008 00:25

R
Redd
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Redd
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R



KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid! - a very popular engineering philosophy. ;\)

in terms of fueling for hi-po cars, many of u are forgetting an old, tried and tested method - add an additional injector or two pre-throttlebody, controlled by a separate injector controller that's out of the ECU loop. sure, its old school and not fancy, but its cheap and gets the job done with minimum fuss and headache.

still dunno about the MAF sensor tho. that one is a pain. when i was tuning my alfa V6, i had heard about this product called a MAP-ECU - it replaces the MAF and the included controller self-learns the parameters which u can fine tune later. anyone played around with it before? i havent been able to get many reviews on it.

redd

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511264
01/01/2008 04:30
01/01/2008 04:30
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia Offline
My life on the forum
Scuderia  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
MAP ECU is a piggyback ecu, like a Unichip. It can also remove the AFM as it has a built in MAP sensor. It was quite basic, fuel only control, but did the job.

MAP ECU 2 is now out which is a huge improvment. For $695USD is pretty good. Easy to install. you just need someone to map it. Mapping would be similar to a live map.

http://www.performancemotorresearch.co.nz/map2.html

This is a New Zealand product and has good support. It works on just about everything, you dont need a specialised tuner for your make of vehicle or ecu. You also get all the other extra features of some aftermarket ecu.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: Scuderia] #511298
01/01/2008 10:19
01/01/2008 10:19

R
Redd
Unregistered
Redd
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R



MAP-ECU2 sounds like an interesting product! anyone gotten it working in a coop yet?

redd

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511481
01/01/2008 22:18
01/01/2008 22:18
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,293
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
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Sandhurst
 Quote:
in terms of fueling for hi-po cars, many of u are forgetting an old, tried and tested method - add an additional injector or two pre-throttlebody, controlled by a separate injector controller that's out of the ECU loop. sure, its old school and not fancy, but its cheap and gets the job done with minimum fuss and headache.


A complete bodge in my opinion! How do you ensure that all 4 / 5 cylinders are all receiving the same amount of extra fuel with this method? You can't, so is just going to cause problems at the end of the day


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511496
01/01/2008 22:40
01/01/2008 22:40

S
suba
Unregistered
suba
Unregistered
S



For those people using a unichip - has anyone tried using a live map to control the idle and open loop fuelling, and then the unichip for closed loop?

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #511846
02/01/2008 15:21
02/01/2008 15:21
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
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I don't think you can clump all aftermarket ECUs together. The functionality provided varies widely. I may be biased (as I have a Motec) but I can add as many compensations to as many conditions as I like or combinations of conditions - the vast majority of aftermarket ECUs cannot.
Aside from that the availability of experts and trusted mappers varies a lot. The usability of the software varies a lot. The amount of effort to get it to work on a coupe varies a lot. Finally the ability for the aftermarket ECU to operate as the OE unit operates varies - many cannot do 3d/time and sensor based cold start compensations. Might not sound like a big deal but it can be a pain in the *rse to drive your car for the first couple of miles without it.

It is true that the latest Bosch systems will not easily work with an aftermarket ECU (not of much concern to coupe owners except VIS N/A ones) and are generally more complex than the Japanese equivalent ECUs. The bus system in the new Bosch ECUs is complex and a lot of mechanics struggle to get their heads around it (even though it makes it easier for an educated mechanic).

The problem with live mapping is really that to do it properly the program in the ECU needs to be understood and in some circumstances changed; however what actually happens is just the data/maps are changed.
It is NOT true that the std ecu cannot be made to do some of the aftermarket capabilities. It has all the information and ability required to do launch control and ALS if you really want it. There is already a basic traction control in the ECU and it could be extended. It is just that no-one bothers with changing the program as I mentioned. There is even space in the chip to have further maps.


On the boost control point the std ecu can control boost as well as a non-gear specific boost controller - just because the std solenoid is naff doesn't mean the ECU isn't trying to control it. And there is a failsafe on the boost control if you let the ECU control it where there is not if you disconnect it and wire in an aftermarket unit.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: JohnS] #512033
02/01/2008 19:04
02/01/2008 19:04

V
Vas
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Vas
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V



I'm jumping in late in the discussion but my 0.02eurocent worth after spending a lot of time with my engine/ecu/learning mapping etc.

IF the 20VT ecu was documented to the level the 16VT is, I'm pretty sure there would be minimal need for aftermarket ECUs and all the problems involved as demonstrated by various posters.

The 16X16table for fueling and the 13X16table for advance (on the 16VT, dunno the sizes for the 20vt but could only be larger than that...) are OK for up to 7.5K revs and with minimum disruption in the lower part of the spectrum could be OK for 8K (imho)
The overboost stategy of the stock ECU is rather complex and again imho sufficient to run higher boosts (you just need a better quality EBV available as the adelco or the perrin for a fraction of the cost of the stock one!)
Fooling around with all the input output of the stock ECU and getting them half decent on an aftermarket ecu will be a miracle (different idle stategies for cold engine, hot engine, higher battery output, lower battery output, air-con on aircon off, you name it it probably messes with some of the tables...)

What I'd ideally like to see for you 20vt lot is a template (definition file) analysing your ECU internals so that someone can play around (the way I'm reading/playing) with just a logging AFR/EGT tool and a laptop.

cheers

V.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: Begbie] #512050
02/01/2008 19:25
02/01/2008 19:25

R
Redd
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Redd
Unregistered
R



 Originally Posted By: Begbie
 Quote:
in terms of fueling for hi-po cars, many of u are forgetting an old, tried and tested method - add an additional injector or two pre-throttlebody, controlled by a separate injector controller that's out of the ECU loop. sure, its old school and not fancy, but its cheap and gets the job done with minimum fuss and headache.


A complete bodge in my opinion! How do you ensure that all 4 / 5 cylinders are all receiving the same amount of extra fuel with this method? You can't, so is just going to cause problems at the end of the day


its not fancy, but it works. it would be exact same situation if ur shooting NOS from a wet kit. if it works for a NOS installation, why not just for additional injectors?

redd

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512119
02/01/2008 21:14
02/01/2008 21:14
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
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Vas,

I would estimate that the 20VT ecu is about 4x more compliated than the 16VT ecu. That is part of the problem


Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: JohnS] #512161
02/01/2008 21:48
02/01/2008 21:48

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



It all depends on how well the live mapping software can let you manipulate the ECU. For example let’s say you want to change the Baro correction map but the software doesn’t let you. To do this is/maybe possible be requires a very high level of understanding not only mapping but electronics so the people who wrote the live mapping software should know how to do this. If the average mapper using this software doesn’t have access to this area of data then as far as he/she is concerned it cannot be changed. The live mapping software used for the 20VT is key to how well it can be mapped. How deep can the live mapping software manipulate this ECU?

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: ] #512176
02/01/2008 22:01
02/01/2008 22:01
Joined: Dec 2005
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JohnS Offline
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it should be able to manipulate any table. That's actually pretty straightforward - the complexity is all about how the tables are related and when they are triggered which is all in the program. I have software that will let me change any value in any table with the car running.

Re: Motronic v Aftermarket ECU [Re: JohnS] #512189
02/01/2008 22:14
02/01/2008 22:14

V
Vas
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Vas
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V



John,

true, but I'm pretty sure that if it was DOCUMENTED which it aint for you and me (well definitely not for me not sure about you ) then it would be doable. Heck, ppl are doing it now!
Now, is it worth spending 2-3grand + all the paraphernalia (sensors, crank wheels, etc) just to have a documented set of tables to edit + the soft to do it?
[ok I may slightly oversimplify things, but the point I'm trying to make is that all the things needed for 400-450bhp are there in our ECUs, it's just that's not easy to do it unless you spend time in it (a lot of time!)

TurboJ:

it's what John says, all is modifyable. When I started playing with my ECU I had a definition file that would let me do certain things. Looking around, comparing with the Cosworth ECU and other bins, now I can edit more tables and we are discussing with a few other guys some address areas that are not clear trying to sort out what they do. So hopefully in a few months time we'll have a better understanding of the tables and their relationships...

V.

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