Motronic v Aftermarket ECU

Nigel has asked me to open a new thread.
Most on here with proper modified cars [above say 320bhp], have still the Motronic ECU but with a mapped alternative chip.
Now my reasoning is, with an after market ECU, the mapping for ignition, fuel, boost is all controlled by the ECU. So no Smart Turbo boost valves[PRV, EBC ].
Boost pressure is regulated by the turbo wastegate which is opened at a boost pressure set by the actuator. To increase boost pressure at which the the wastegate is opened, the actuator needs to see a lower pressure than actually exists in the inlet manifold. The aftermarket ECU can control a solenoid or air injector to do this. The solenoid or air injector can be turned off / on to give low (actuator level) and high (ECU controlled) boost.
Best of all, it can be swapped between cars with stored maps to work on any car [RR mapped for each individual car]
At no time will the requirements breech the parameters of the after market ECU, and it logs all faults present.
Best of all, it will switch to a safe map if it detects a problem like lean mixture etc. You are not relying on a valve[s] to save your engine.
The Omex The 710 series ECU can store 15 of its parameters (inputs, outputs, and all the calculations in between) at user selectable rates on the inbuilt 1/2MB memory chip. Unlimited recording of the parameters can be made whilst connected live to a PC. The results of this logging can be viewed using the analysis tool DATA2000.
And last, Traction control.
A single road speed sensor (typically the sensor for an electronic speedo) can be input to the ECU to allow traction control. The traction control can be used on 2 or 4 wheel drive vehicles as it does not rely on wheel speed differences. After initial PC based setup, an optional dashboard mounted adjuster dial can allow the traction control levels to be adjusted in car whilst driving.
Comments very welcome.

Andy.

So what is the point of going to an aftermarket when there is someone out there who can live map the motorinic ECU? The Motronic will still do the same functions as an aftermarket one and will have no issues in doing so.

The only reason to go aftermarket would be ALS, LC, TC while the motronic can not do this.

Take the 16vt as another example. Has the same ecu as the cossie cars and those cossies run 400bhp+ on a std weber ecu, with additional boards to be added for wasted spark, ALS and LC, so again, no need really for an aftermarket ecu, but in my case, i decidied to change the ecu as the standard weber will not have enough rev breakpoints to do up to 8000rpm (16 breakpoints on the weber)

Sorry Alexis, had not finished writing it up. thanks for your input.
Andy.

I think your missing the point a tad andy.

There is no doubt that the aftermarket has more features than the stnd ecu. However, whether or not its worth it to install the aftermarket ecu to achieve very similar results on fairly modded coupes, is the problem.

Ross

Do you happern to sell this system Andy?

I really dont see the point in this thread

Oh hell - here we go again.....

You make it sound like those are features unique to the aftermarket ECU. Ignition and fuelling are perfectly well controlled by the standard (or mapped) Motronic ECU. Only boost modulation isn't catered for, but can be very easily and very cheaply controlled with a greddy / Apexi / Blitz boost controller

Face it - your assertion that modded Coupes need an aftermarket ECU is simply incorrect. There are less than a handful of Coupes running Motec and from memory, three of them are 2.4s, where the standard MAF just couldn't cope and the standard ECU couldn't cope with a bigger MAF.

from Sumplug's post



from Omex's website



Seems that your argument is based on what you read, not what you know

Lol... u actually had to check it was copy/paste?

Ross

Actually, boost control is in the normal ecu as well, but not sure if it is down to lazyiness as to why this isn't adjusted so the EBV can be used instead and keep all the safety issues the std ecu will do when it detects a problem

Why not quote what Omex say? It explains what their system does surely?
Then your argument goes to Omex perhaps?
Why do you need extra controllers? Its all built in!!
The boost on the Omex is related to the map, det control, rpm control, temperature limits etc. A stand alone boost controller knows nothing of the other parameters, so why sell the real ECU short?

Andy.

My argument stems down to this.
Can you afford to spend several thousand pounds on a rebuild/upgrade and rely on the OE ECU to cope with the parameter increases? I would rather be safe then sorry thank you very much. Its like having a set of rods that come with the knowledge they are ok for the job but not guaranteed to be reliable. A risk i would want to avoid.
The OE ECU cannot control the boost fully and relies on a valve to save the engine. Err.... Don't think so with 320+ bhp mods!! Perhaps its a personal thing, but i put reliability and durability first.

Andy.

Isn't Richard Beaty associated with wolf racing, builder of a punto gt engine that did not contain what was listed inside it, Amongst other rip off's / cock up's ?

http://www.puntosports.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=20839&highlight=beaty

http://www.puntosports.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=37237&highlight=beaty

http://www.puntosports.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=44823&page=2&highlight=beaty

http://www.puntosports.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=44823&page=3&highlight=beaty

Forgive me if this is a stupid thing to say, but surely a 220hp standard fiat coupe engine is going to use nearly all the same outputs such as knock/air/temps/revs/etc as the fundamentally the same engine components as a tuned one which are a bt bigger - eg a larger turbo to make it more powerful? Obviously as you get into much larger machinery such as the 2.4, they have other requirements such as the need for a larger MAF so they are the ones using the different ECUs?

and for that reason alone u shd stick with the bosch motronic ECU as far as possible.

the bosch unit is very complex and does a lot of things a race ECU like a motec may not do. the motronic has to handle idle under varying conditions - ambient temp, loads, etc etc - in and of itself a very complex task. most aftermarket ECU replacements really screw up here. sure u cld set idle at 2000rpms but u'd overheat the engine in no time in a traffic jam.

the motronic also needs to interface with the CODE security, ABS, a plethora of sensors - lambda, knock, water temp, ambient temp, MAF, etc etc - and all the while allowing u to run different levels of fuel octane, in different ambient temps. not easy.

race ECUs are great for what they were designed to do - work in race cars to accomodate different levels of tune. race cars arent designed to work well in traffic jams or deal with different types of fuel in different countries and run in different ambient temps. if ur gonna turn ur coop into a race car, then by all means go motec. otherwise, stick with the motronic.

true story - a friend here with a fat wallet was building a 500hp 4WD coop. its still a work in progress. one of the tuners had fried his original ECU so he decided to try a motec. it gave him no end of troubles. idle was very high, and the car would cut out whenever it got too hot. he had to wait 10 mins for the car to cool before he could re-start it. and it happened whenever he got in a jam. he has since decided to move back to the bosch motronic and try other means to control additional injectors, etc.

another friend with an Alfa GT decided to turbocharge his car. the GT's EURO3/EURO4 electronics are even more complex - the engine ECU is linked to the body computer and things stop working when one thinks the other isn't there. he put in a motec and got no end of troubles. he could only get either the rev meter OR the fuel gauge to work. he had to pick one. in the end he got an external fuel gauge. due the complex bosch system, he had to leave a dead MAF wired in the engine bay [even tho he had already converted to a MAP sensor] or the car would not start. there's a whole list of other issues but i forget. he is currently considering going back to stock.

the worse thing is, in both cases, if any sort of issue/problem arose, they couldn't simply plug in the examiner and find out what was wrong. as the bosch motronic had been replaced, any problems required lengthy manual troubleshooting to narrow down the cause.

all i can say is good luck if u choose to go down the path of an aftermarket ECU replacement.

redd

Andy, why are not in the 'contact us' section of your site?

On the cost front, most people who reach 320bhp, go there in a progressive manner, so they have already invested in a boost controller and thus get no advantage from it being an ECU feature.

stick with the Bosch ECU, no offense to the other makers of aftermarket ECU's, but they simply have not got the R&D to make such good off the shelf ECU's. Remember Bosch supply A LOT of OEM manufacturers for a REASON(s)

I will not put one on my 2.4, not needed


don't fix what is not broke, unless you want to just waste your hard earned dosh, sure you can get antilag etc... ( whatever good that is down the high street ! )

I've seen others play with aftermakret suff & it always causes so much aggro', never a simple swap, then theres the case of finding someone with half a brain who can wire one up correctly ! ( that also goes for the unichips etc, which are a basic bodge ! ).

So how does the OMEX do it? er, with a valve, I guess

Are you really trying to tell me that a solenoid valve controlled by the Omex is better than a solenoid valve controlled by a dedicated boost controller?

The argument that having it in a single unit doesn't hold water. Does your TV have a DVD player incorporated into it?

Aftermarket ECUs are really intended for race cars. They never work as well at running all the functions of the car, even the more expensive ones. Cheap ones, forget it. These days with multiple ecu's, an aftermarket ecu is usually only an addition to the OE ecu. Aftermarket to run fuel, ign, boost etc and the OE to run the rest of the car, idle control, etc etc. If you have the luxury of a live map there is no need. An off the shelf, one size fits all chip is a different story.

Im a fan of aftermarket ecus, for older cars they are great but modern road cars are too complex now.

As I run both I feel I can probably give a balanced and informed opinion. Essentially it's horses for courses.

<<The OE ECU cannot control the boost fully and relies on a valve to save the engine. Err.... Don't think so with 320+ bhp mods!! Perhaps its a personal thing, but i put reliability and durability first.>>

The OE ECU has proven reliability and durability.

The OE ECU does control the boost, exactly the same way as an aftermarket one does - It has to go via an electronically controlled valve, there is no difference.


<<the worse thing is, in both cases, if any sort of issue/problem arose, they couldn't simply plug in the examiner and find out what was wrong. as the bosch motronic had been replaced, any problems required lengthy manual troubleshooting to narrow down the cause.>>

This is utter rubbish, with any aftermarket ECU you simply plug it into a laptop and using the appropriate supplied software you can fault find and adjust. Does Motronic datalog? I don't think so

Aftermarket (AM) ECUs are only as good as the people who fit them and map them, if a backyard mechanic fits a Motec and gets his mate from down the pub to map it it's not going to give satisfactory results is it? An AM ECU can do EVERYTHING an OE one can do and more.

A lot of it boils down to relative cost, if an average Coupe is worth £4K and fitting and mapping an AM ECU costs £1.5 - £2k then you are looking at 1/2 the value of the car, Coupe owners are not known for splashing the cash and why would they? It's a cheap performance car.

I would go with the track/race car V road car analogy as this is the way I have gone, my road car uses an OE remapped ECU and the track car runs proffesionaly mapped Motec, both have had their advantages and problems.
How many people can I take my OE ECU to be remapped? Not many, in fact I know of only one outfit that does them.

The track car running Motec? Well I can pretty much take my pick and there are some real Pros out there I could go to.

There are courses for Motec users, Forums, back up, upgrades, add ons etc, you won't get any of this with Motronic.

Because you and your friends have all this muddled up, i am not going to comment.
But what i will say is this. Richards cancer was in his hip. This was cured and in remission over 18 months. Over this period, his partner ran the company [UAD] into the ground.
Its funny, but one of the main writers on those posts is his former partner!!
Richard then got a Brain tumour which was partly removed. it is still there and swells and pressurises, needing hospital treatment. This can put him in hospital for a while.
What your cronies said on Puntosport is cruel and unfounded.
Oh yes, the thefts were his tools. If you know anything about commercial insurance, it is impossible to insure tools!! So how was it an inside job?? It was local Asians who were later caught. They had also ripped off other companies which was conveniently left out of that discussion!!

Andy

It's a good point, but not all together valid - to say they never work aswell with all the functions of the car isn't true, it's down to the number of functions included in the ECU, guy that fitted it and the one that sets it up. You want to control the ABS and aircon with your Motec? No problem, pay a bit extra and they will add it on.

Modern cars too complex? I would say the Mitsubishi Evo or the Imprezza are suitably complex cars, you can get a Motec which plugs in and runs them out of the box - no messing. Electronically controlled diffs that spoil the fun when you can't control them? No problem, plug in a Motec diff controller, lock the diffs up and drift away till your hearts content.........

Gralecoupe, It was a generalised comment. I should not have used the word "never".

The Omex OM17 will work, as will a motec, and Pectel SQ6.

The main advantage for me is data logging, but when you look at the price of buying, installing a custom loom and mapping the car you are looking at about 3K. It may be argueably safer - but if I melt something I can get a rebuild for less....

Data logging is essential, I dont have it and I wish I had. I'd love a motec or SQ6, maybe later sometime, and I'll make a better loom to go with it.

Rich

Good points.
I am worried that with a motronic, you rely on an external boost controller. It is the speed the ECU switches to safe mode that saves your engine. I could not trust a boost controller.
Motronic has not got enough setting points to perfect the ignition and fuelling, so somewhere its compromised.
I keep looking at the RR graphs in the Rolling Road section, and you can see the spikes and troughs on many of them. Ignition and fuelling compromised?

Andy.

At the end of the day how many safety feaures do you want or need. I dont have any safety's whatsoever. I dont even have an oil temperature gauge. Im perfectly content to race like that. I know the car pretty well and experence does count for something.

Bare Minimum! Water temp gauge, Oil pressure light and Tach, sod anything else

Hardly a great philosophy steve, I have a coupe side repeater on a 25psi oil pressure switch, and a shift light, you need those 2 things. In all I have a rev counter, oil pressure and temp (so I can judge if the cooling circuit is ok), water temp (you could lose water system cooling an not know until its too late) and a fuel gauge, plus those 2 lights.

You can never have too much information.

On track I keep an eye on the basics, afterwards I look through the non essentials, it gives me a better idea of what is going on and I can modify the car accordingly.

How do you know how hot your oil is running on the track? If it gets too hot, it will rob power Would be nice to keep the oil around 85 degrees.
Your braver then me.

Andy.

You lot running the standard Bosch ECU that want to datalog, why not use one of the innovate products such as the LM1 or DL-32?

Agreed. I was trying to get a point across. how much safety do you need? Its all peace of mind at the end of the day.

If an ECU goes into safety it will insantly loose power or you will know something is up. Time to stop, you dont need a boost retard IMO. Motronic does have that function anyway. Boost will drop to actuator pressure under safety. A lot of aftermarket ecu's wont do that or even have knock loop control. It comes down to how well they are setup in the first place. I make sure everyhting is on the safe side, as safe as possible.

sorry but no. japanese cars - even the latest ones - are nowhere near as complex as european cars. we have very competent motec tuners here who can install and tune evos, scoobies, skylines in the dark with one hand tied behind their backs. give them a 5-yr old alfa and they dont know head from tails. the latest bosch motronic systems are just too complex. read up on the internet about unichip users trying to install them onto newer gen german/italian cars - many complain of the stock ECU fighting the unichip and putting the car in safe mode.

only some of the very latest jap cars - like the nissan 350Z - are starting to get as complex as european cars. the 350Z is also notoriously difficult to tune.

redd

So - because there may be people watching this thread trying to make a decision on which way to go - lets vote on the best form of ECU

It depends on your application, clearly. However, we are considering Coupes here, so lets assume the application that currently applies to 100% of Coupes, i.e. road use (can't think of ANY 100% track Coupes)

Deleted


Sorry just read Nigels post properly...



Nigel are you still resetting your ECU often, and if so why is that?

Can you go into some more detail on this please?

Without datalogging it would not make much difference to me unless I had audible warnings set up etc. as despite all the best intentions the only gauges I end up looking at on track are the rev counter and the water temp, unless there's someone in the passenger seat that can help out.

I'd agree with that too, I'd rather watch where I was going if I was going fast, any more than a glance is too long....

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTS.php

Bottom of the page. I was considering getting some of them, as the only sensor i don't have now is EGT. Would need to buy the rpm convertor to make sense of all the readings, but it would be a good piece of kit!!

Ross

You have the xd16 Ross? Will get one rebuild time methinks

Yeah i have the xd16 with the lc1 wideband controller.

Ross

Its true, honestly couldnt tell you what the running oil pressure was in mine, as long as the yellow light's off its all good... When I took my ARDS test it was my first time on track, finished the session and realised didnt look at the dials even once!!

That's what straights are for

not a lot of them at 3 sister trev, but now yes a quick look down. Or in the kappa's case dont look!!

That is absolute rubbish. Both ECU's use an external boost controller. The aftermarket uses an AMEL valve which is a basic boost controller it works the same as a separate boost controller. There is plenty of time as the speed the ECU processes far quicker than an engine will ever run.



So how big is the fuel and ignition table then? From that comment one can assume you have see the mapping software for the Motronic?




Ok I feel I am able to make my comments now. As many of you know I had tried out DTA and that went seriously wrong due to the main fact that it could not properly run a 5 cylinder I won’t go into details as I have mentioned it many times in other threads.
I’m currently re-building my engine due to the DTA F**K up and it was built incorrectly by WDR. I won’t go into detail here either.

Anyway aftermarket vs Live map:
My personal opinion is that the live map is cheap and a really good choice as the OE system for the 20VT is very advanced and does an excellent job for people. The reason why the live is cheap e.g £450 is because it is not being fully mapped. Most of this has been done by Bosch/Fiat and is spot on e.g compensation tables, cold start maps, cranking maps etc. All that really is being changed in the map is the fuelling and the ignition plus a few others. There is nothing wrong with this as it is the logical way to map this type of ECU and the results are great and it keeps the features of the ECU e.g knock control, CODE, EVAP.

Problems with live map:
The problem I find is once you need a certain amount of power you start pushing that system too far. But where do we draw the line between ditching the OE and going to aftermarket? Let’s take the 400BHP+ plus cars for example. To run these properly there are two major floors I find with the OE. There are the injectors and the AFM. The AFM maxes out and is mapped to maximum boost pressure. So it could be fuelling the same for 1.3Bar and 1.5Bar. As you can see this causes a problem of running rich when not on full boost. The other thing when using bigger injectors the pulse width has to be changed to accommodate for this. That will throw compensation maps out for example battery voltage compensation map will have to be changed and so will the cold start map and cranking maps, transients maps etc. To change all these maps is a task in it’s self and you only really get two chances per day to get the cold start map right. Changing these maps may or may not possible depending on the Live map software but the bottom line is that this task will certainly cost more than £450. It is far easier to keep the original injectors and up the fuel pressure and scale up the map as a percentage as fewer values will have to be changed. I think this is cheating as personally I don’t want to push the duty cycle above 85% and go up on the fuel pressure and use other tricks to keep the cost down as I feel it can cause problems over time. To get the OE running perfect you may end up shelling out loads of money and could be cheaper in RR time to get an aftermarket mapped by someone who knows that system well too.

Aftermarket:
With the aftermarket system EVERYTHING will have to be setup properly which is the problem as to do a PROPER map from scratch is very time consuming usually about 30hours+. The other problem is that you have to find a system that can keep as many features as the OE plus more to justify the change. Now we all know that Motec is tried and tested but has anyone tried any other systems? Well I looked at most and the conclusion is:

DTA P8: Works but needs a custom trigger wheel and can’t run sequential injection, cold start map is odd and it don’t use an idle control valve plus mapping software is very limited. This system is utter crap I would avoid.

MOTEC: Tried and tested works well with many features but damages your pocket.

KMS: Can work but would needs a custom trigger wheel and don’t have enough AUX’s to run the VVC, RAD fans, WI.

DTA new model: I wouldn’t go near it due to the experience I had with the P8. I would advise anyone to steer clear of this system completely. I wouldn’t try it if they gave me one for free.

Megasquirt: Very cheap lacks many features probably couldn’t run our engine yet but its getting better so watch out in 2008.

Autronic: Haven’t really tested yet but the feature looks the tits it should easily run our engines probably better and cheaper than Motec.

OMEX710: I’m currently investigating this system as I plan to use it. It has many features and will work extremely well with our engines. With plently of AUX for WI, twin fans, NOS etc...

Conclusion:
If money is no object and you’re aiming for high power then seriously consider the aftermarket as it will be a far better map. As Begbie said tuning is not cheap. The live map works and is a great compromise for money but is NOT perfect for higher powered coupes certain aftermarkets are far better than the OE. I am still undecided however I am still edging towards the aftermarket side even though I got stung with the DTA because I want to be able to map my own car rather than pay somebody every time I want to make a change, plus I feel my map will be better as my motto is if you want something done properly you gotta do it yourself.
I have so much to say on this subject I could write pages on this.

Now my problem is do I live map my ECU at PT for £450 or do I buy the OMEX for £600 and wire it in myself and map it for free
I will happily test the OMEX 710 and post my results as long as I am able to borrow the RR for a few days

Thanks for reading

I think the answer is "keep it simple"

Thanks Ross, i forgot about the LMA3, which is what i want to use (not the DL-32 which is more expensive) along with the LC1. Good thing about these bits of kit is that they are MTS compliant, meaning you can use a number of XD16 gauges to show some of the data channels that you want to see live (Boost, AFR, EGT etc), or you just use your laptop. You can also connect the LC1 into the system as an external sensor and datalog that along with the others (4 internal, instead of the 5, as you'd be using 1 external port).

KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid! - a very popular engineering philosophy.

in terms of fueling for hi-po cars, many of u are forgetting an old, tried and tested method - add an additional injector or two pre-throttlebody, controlled by a separate injector controller that's out of the ECU loop. sure, its old school and not fancy, but its cheap and gets the job done with minimum fuss and headache.

still dunno about the MAF sensor tho. that one is a pain. when i was tuning my alfa V6, i had heard about this product called a MAP-ECU - it replaces the MAF and the included controller self-learns the parameters which u can fine tune later. anyone played around with it before? i havent been able to get many reviews on it.

redd

MAP ECU is a piggyback ecu, like a Unichip. It can also remove the AFM as it has a built in MAP sensor. It was quite basic, fuel only control, but did the job.

MAP ECU 2 is now out which is a huge improvment. For $695USD is pretty good. Easy to install. you just need someone to map it. Mapping would be similar to a live map.

http://www.performancemotorresearch.co.nz/map2.html

This is a New Zealand product and has good support. It works on just about everything, you dont need a specialised tuner for your make of vehicle or ecu. You also get all the other extra features of some aftermarket ecu.

MAP-ECU2 sounds like an interesting product! anyone gotten it working in a coop yet?

redd

A complete bodge in my opinion! How do you ensure that all 4 / 5 cylinders are all receiving the same amount of extra fuel with this method? You can't, so is just going to cause problems at the end of the day

For those people using a unichip - has anyone tried using a live map to control the idle and open loop fuelling, and then the unichip for closed loop?

I don't think you can clump all aftermarket ECUs together. The functionality provided varies widely. I may be biased (as I have a Motec) but I can add as many compensations to as many conditions as I like or combinations of conditions - the vast majority of aftermarket ECUs cannot.
Aside from that the availability of experts and trusted mappers varies a lot. The usability of the software varies a lot. The amount of effort to get it to work on a coupe varies a lot. Finally the ability for the aftermarket ECU to operate as the OE unit operates varies - many cannot do 3d/time and sensor based cold start compensations. Might not sound like a big deal but it can be a pain in the *rse to drive your car for the first couple of miles without it.

It is true that the latest Bosch systems will not easily work with an aftermarket ECU (not of much concern to coupe owners except VIS N/A ones) and are generally more complex than the Japanese equivalent ECUs. The bus system in the new Bosch ECUs is complex and a lot of mechanics struggle to get their heads around it (even though it makes it easier for an educated mechanic).

The problem with live mapping is really that to do it properly the program in the ECU needs to be understood and in some circumstances changed; however what actually happens is just the data/maps are changed.
It is NOT true that the std ecu cannot be made to do some of the aftermarket capabilities. It has all the information and ability required to do launch control and ALS if you really want it. There is already a basic traction control in the ECU and it could be extended. It is just that no-one bothers with changing the program as I mentioned. There is even space in the chip to have further maps.


On the boost control point the std ecu can control boost as well as a non-gear specific boost controller - just because the std solenoid is naff doesn't mean the ECU isn't trying to control it. And there is a failsafe on the boost control if you let the ECU control it where there is not if you disconnect it and wire in an aftermarket unit.

I'm jumping in late in the discussion but my 0.02eurocent worth after spending a lot of time with my engine/ecu/learning mapping etc.

IF the 20VT ecu was documented to the level the 16VT is, I'm pretty sure there would be minimal need for aftermarket ECUs and all the problems involved as demonstrated by various posters.

The 16X16table for fueling and the 13X16table for advance (on the 16VT, dunno the sizes for the 20vt but could only be larger than that...) are OK for up to 7.5K revs and with minimum disruption in the lower part of the spectrum could be OK for 8K (imho)
The overboost stategy of the stock ECU is rather complex and again imho sufficient to run higher boosts (you just need a better quality EBV available as the adelco or the perrin for a fraction of the cost of the stock one!)
Fooling around with all the input output of the stock ECU and getting them half decent on an aftermarket ecu will be a miracle (different idle stategies for cold engine, hot engine, higher battery output, lower battery output, air-con on aircon off, you name it it probably messes with some of the tables...)

What I'd ideally like to see for you 20vt lot is a template (definition file) analysing your ECU internals so that someone can play around (the way I'm reading/playing) with just a logging AFR/EGT tool and a laptop.

cheers

V.

its not fancy, but it works. it would be exact same situation if ur shooting NOS from a wet kit. if it works for a NOS installation, why not just for additional injectors?

redd

Vas,

I would estimate that the 20VT ecu is about 4x more compliated than the 16VT ecu. That is part of the problem

It all depends on how well the live mapping software can let you manipulate the ECU. For example let’s say you want to change the Baro correction map but the software doesn’t let you. To do this is/maybe possible be requires a very high level of understanding not only mapping but electronics so the people who wrote the live mapping software should know how to do this. If the average mapper using this software doesn’t have access to this area of data then as far as he/she is concerned it cannot be changed. The live mapping software used for the 20VT is key to how well it can be mapped. How deep can the live mapping software manipulate this ECU?

it should be able to manipulate any table. That's actually pretty straightforward - the complexity is all about how the tables are related and when they are triggered which is all in the program. I have software that will let me change any value in any table with the car running.

John,

true, but I'm pretty sure that if it was DOCUMENTED which it aint for you and me (well definitely not for me not sure about you ) then it would be doable. Heck, ppl are doing it now!
Now, is it worth spending 2-3grand + all the paraphernalia (sensors, crank wheels, etc) just to have a documented set of tables to edit + the soft to do it?
[ok I may slightly oversimplify things, but the point I'm trying to make is that all the things needed for 400-450bhp are there in our ECUs, it's just that's not easy to do it unless you spend time in it (a lot of time!)

TurboJ:

it's what John says, all is modifyable. When I started playing with my ECU I had a definition file that would let me do certain things. Looking around, comparing with the Cosworth ECU and other bins, now I can edit more tables and we are discussing with a few other guys some address areas that are not clear trying to sort out what they do. So hopefully in a few months time we'll have a better understanding of the tables and their relationships...

V.

We are all talking about the same thing here. I just used the baro table as a basic example. You see I have never seen the software used to map the 20VT so it is difficult for me to really say what it can and can’t do.

I’m guessing the software you have allows you to change the maps on the fly via an eeprom emulator as long as the data algorithm is known you should know where you are in the map at any given time and it should be pretty simple to change the tables.

What else can this software allow you to do that could benefit e.g can you change the scale of the AFM to prevent it from maxing out early? (I have a hardware modification idea about this that I would like to try out but i need to be able to adjust the software too) If you have the software I wouldn’t mind in having a go at my ECU. You can PM me a link? The ONLY reason I would go to aftermarket is because I want to map my own car.

I'm having the Autronic system fitted, hopefully this month. Will report back later with any useful information.

John

Since years I'm looking for a DAMOS File for the 20VT Motronic. In this file it's discribed where and what every bit in the map does. This file can be imported in most well known tuning softwares like winols. Usually this files are just available from bosch or fiat.
Otherwise a chiptuner must know what he's changing ore must have the right equipment to read out where all the sensors having access to the map.

Daniel

DAMOS file That’s exactly what I’m after too.

There were two versions of DAMOS used dependent on the year of your motor (the chip is different, although the rest of the EMU is the same more or less)

Yes your right there are two files for the 20VT the older one and the later one. What did they change?

Older one software no: 1037358539
Uses DAMOS8-08-0107

Newer one software no: 1037358892
Uses DAMOS8-08-0208

maps are located in different places and the program is different. According to the ECU contents it is a change from v14 to v15 DAMOS.
Earlier 20VTs apparently had a little more aggressive power delivery and maybe a little more power out the box . All custom chips (gtec, gtec2, novitec, digitec, reddot, squadra, PTs stuff) have been built off the later chip to my knowledge.

Nobody has mentioned the Emerald ECU yet, I always thought that this looked like a good package. The guy that's behind it (Dave Walker) wrote a book about it, it comes with a CD of maps and instructions and he RR tunes all the cars with it in Lincolnshire. It has some kind of initial self learning ability with it and can run different maps too (for different levels of boost or different fuels, trackday settings etc), which all added up makes it look like a good all round package. The only downside is that it needs additional sensors and his RR only goes up to 400bhp.

Sorry for offtopic reply, but if someone has spare time to compare the maps between DAMOS V14 and V15, I can supply the V14 Version. My coupe was originally deliverd from factory with V14 Version.

Daniel

I didn’t mention this earlier because to be honest I forgot about this one and when I last looked at Emerald it was fuel only. Their new K3 does both and seems to look ok even though the software looks very basic. I don’t know if it can run the 5 cylinder properly because you need the ECU connected for all the software features to be unlocked but it looks pretty promising I will need further investigation.

Sorry - but I've been down that route already. Spoke to Dave Walker and the Emerald units will not do the 5cyl engine....maybe life would have been easier using a 16vt base.....it's a damn shame as the emerald units looked very good at a very good price.

Ah, I didn't know, that's a shame -thanks for the info. I wouldn't swap a 20VT for a 16VT engine, a slight downgrade IMO, it's a great engine.

(Ducks for cover from Beggars and the 16v crew)

unfortunately, as it has been mentioned before, that's an area that older engines excel... And judging by the number of 20vt powerplants around, the models/period that have been used (officially) I doubt it will get any better for you lot.

[and I'm not going to comment on "downgrades" either]

V.

Emerald will run a 5cyl with distributor, but not 5 coil packs, as you need 5+ ignition outputs, most.. how can we say 'club' level ecu's only have 2 ignition outs eg omex 600. I think that the stumbling block for many ecu's, 5 ignition amps.

RIch

Actually the Emarald has 6 coil drivers so it can run the 5 pot the problem is that the crank sensor fires at 270BTDC (odd crank angle) and the software has not been changed to accommodate this. Also both spark and fuel needs to run in sequential mode.

They're very different - map locations are in different places and everything. The only way you could relate the two is reverse-engineer both programs and spot the common procedures/functions (fairly easy with the right software) and then it wouldn't give you much either I don't think

Rich

The Motec M48 only has two ignition outs, but on the kappa these are connected to a double and a triple expander giving 5 outputs so the k can run coil packs

But knowing what I've learned over the past three years, I'd lay out more upfront and go for a Motec M600/M800 which copes with 5 cylinder engines out of the box

Trevor

was going to mention that trev, but wanted to considerthe cheaper end, as the motec plug ignition multiplier stacks up and low end ecu's cant do that.

But if you're going to change yours.......

no need to change, got it working alright after a fair bit of effort, a glitch or two in the Motec algorithm, etc

M4 will work perfectly fine on 4 cylinders although I could use a cheap one of those if one turns up for the Y10

I could do with something with data log, theres been a few omex 600's on ebay but dont seem to sell, so Im a bit stuck with it.

Rich

I have a EMS Stinger 4424 which is only an entry level ecu. Still, you get 11 load points (most have only 6-8) 4 ignition and injector outputs, a data logger and it can run a wide band O2 sensor. Pretty good ecu for the money, More than adiquate for my race car anyway.

The EMS 8860 is their flagship ecu. It has all the features of the stinger and more, 8 ign and 8 inj outputs. variable load points etc. Compare it to an Autronic or Motec for the price.

http://www.enginemanagement.com.au/cms/

I have bought a Vems EMS! It has about 32 outputs. Can run up to 8 cylinders COP (And is compatible with 20vt coils), sequential injection, TRUE knock control. It has built in WB controller and EGT controller, and uses Megatune. This system is really great, and is more or less opensource like Megasquirt. Just a lot more advanced!
I got the system for about 450£ with WB sensor, EGT sensor and everything else needed to fit on my 20vt. Including 55pin Bosch connector so i can make the ECU box just like a std. Bosch ECU, so it just plugs right into the factory harness. Oh and it has a built in boost controller to!
http://www.vems.hu

I will make a post in here when i have received the goods, so i can keep you guys posted with details and pictures. Ofcourse this is a somewhat advanced, and not something you just plug in and drive away. This is tuning from the very start, but i like the learning experience and the help from the "Wiki" (forum) on vems.hu has some pretty talented guys to help if you are lost... Which i probably will be at some time!

- This system is also used on the Audi S2's which has 3 trigger inputs... Not many ECU's can handle this system, but the Vems is quite popular amongst the Danish Audi guys (I dont know how big Vems is in the rest of the world? It's Danish made).

I am suprised that is a a limitation - normally you would just shuffle the firing order along until you get in range of the ECU as a workaround to that. So it is wired up that the second firing cylinder is thought of as the first in the ECU and the first becomes the fifth.

Yes been there and done that and it don't work. Well not with DTA anyway. The sync between the cam and cranks becomes very strange and the signal keeps jumping and not giving a true five cylinder tacho signal. I wouldn’t like to try this on another ECU. If it doesn’t truly handle 5 cylinders at 270BTDC then why try and trick it. In theory moving the firing order to start on the next cylinder that is in the software range should work but in my case it didn't. Even PT and DTA couldn't sort it out so the end result was that they wanted me to change the trigger wheel.

Good for you. That´s what I ordered for my coupe

sada1000: Have you gotten around to fitting and tuning it? I'm pretty excited - never done such work before, so should be lots of "fun"!

No mine will be not fitted until engine rebuild is finished. I don´t know whats the install going to be like... Are you gonna try and fit it yourself??

Yeah im gonna start fitting it within the next couple of weeks... Gonna tune it myself on the road with the WB and EGT! On a freshly built engine, so i'm hoping for ~350hp on the 440cc injectors i've bought. Dont know if the gta clutch will cope though, but since its a bravo the weight isn't as high as a coup, so maybe it will! Otherwise i'll have to turn it down a bit...
But installing the Vems is gonna take a long time - and especially getting the idle, timing and fuiling right when tuning.

Lars - How are you going to detect for knocking on the engine?

It takes some configurating, but there is a built in Knock controller in the Vems... It utilizes the two knock sensors on the 20vt, and will only retard timing on the cylinder that is knocking.
But there is alot of work to getting it tuned just right, because you have to measure the Hz which knocking occurs etc. So its not something i will count on when tuning the car... Will probably be using a dyno for WOT, so i can have a look at the power figure. Knocking will give a performance drop, so should show there. But in the end i will probably go for a pretty conservative ignition map, and a bit on the rich side for fueling, just to be safe.

The ecu on my stratos replica uses knock sensors but quite a lot of people don't use them.

The knock control on my omex actually takes a 'measurement' of knock at idle just to get a base line reading this is then set as 'zero', after that it will then take a accurate reading. Without this facility the sensor can actually detect knock when there isn't any, just the engines usual clatter.

strat which omex are you using?

710

Excactly Strat24v. The same calibration has to be done when mounting the Vems, but lots of attempts have shown that the simple way to do it is to hit the block with a wrench and record the Hz off the impact on a laptop. Then put that into Megatune, and that is it more or less. But its probably harder than i make it sound, haven't tried yet!

Bit off topic strat but if you didnt know you can link omex with racelogic DL1 data logger to log engine parameters with the gps data. Only found that out at autosport - and bought one for my 600 as the lesser model had no datalog.

Regards the knowck sensor the set up is the same for the omex hitting the block. I will wire up the coupe sensor and decide whether to play with the knock.

Rich

Motronic knock circuit also has a reference. It will actually set a code if it does not pick up enough "noise".

See? This is a proper way to fine tune your engine management system

I've nearly done that a few times when I've got hacked off with it.....

Does your speedometer work with Omex/Motec? Because that is one of my concerns when mounting a new ecu system.

Surely the speedo just reads off the gearbox. It's got nowt to do with the ECU.

ECU knows the speed as well - I guess it uses the same signal (although the ECU sees it in km/h)

Correct.

Given that the 20VT uses a Bosch Motronic ECU and that Bosch do a mappable motorsport range can the two be interchanged easily enough? I wonder if there is much advantage to be had?

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/2953.htm

A large portion of the cost is in mapping. Looking at some of those prices it'll be cheaper to get MoTec!

Yeah, the price does work against it a bit!

From what I can make out this is a step above what Motec does though, it's probably more at home in the likes of F1 or Le Mans racers, maybe a bit more than we need eh?! I did think it was interesting though and never knew that Bosch had a Motorsport division.

On the cost of mapping and speaking from my experience:
If you can beg or buy cheaply enough a base map to get your engine running then you are 75% of the way there, then you can either fine tune it yourself or (like me) get someone else to do it - It only cost me about £300 to have mine done and it gives good power and economy, still needs some cold start adjustment, although this could be put down to hard plugs and an old fashioned distributor system.

Does anyone have any DMOS file where everything is explained?

You won't find anything anywhere that explains the Motronic for the 20vt!! It has taken a me a lot of time, effort and research to get to grips with it all and that is starting from a knowledge base of zero!!