I told you so...

This thread reserved for Friday morning.

What about the thread for the same Friday in 2017?

It seems that some "Status Quo" will be appropriate...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sivblqJGN4

Assuming there's a vote to Leave (most probable result), who will fall on their sword first?

I'm going for Osborne.

If we leave the EU and Trump becomes president I'm applying for NASAs first manned mission to Mars.

I happen to think Remain will have it though, as do the markets it seems.

What makes you say that? Genuinely interested to know as the stuff I've been reading/people I've been listening to reckon it's either too close to call or Remain has it by a whisker.

Even the bookies reckon Remain is the shorter option.

I'm predicting a significant majority for remain, despite all the 'too close to call' crap. Mark my words!

I think there will be 1pt in it and they'll call the whole thing off. Then we can all stop having to listen to all this crap.

bookies are normally correct with their odds and remain was very short odds this morning.Personally think remain will win, nothing will change in this country, will have to sit and watch the population grow and grow.

yep, in a logarithmically expanding parasitic way.



It is too close to predict (the result).
Even if we do the right thing and opt out.... or completely stuff ourselves by remaining (that is my own opinion but may not be yours of course) this Country will be reaping exactly what it sows.

Leave - Fields of plenty, or
Remain -the dust bowls of the southern plains
(again, my democratic opinion)

Democratic, but perhaps not necessarily accurate[1].

I trust you've all been out and voted?

[1] that's me being all diplomatic when I disagree with you!

7:01am this morning. Second in line.

21:58. I have a job and kids to sort out.

Postal vote, life's too short to stand in line unnecessarily.

Me too!

I voted with a pencil, but I pressed HARD.

Brexit Chris Grayling (terrible former justice minister, really) is now supporting Cameron. Make of that what you will.

Reading between the lines..........

Even Carswell from UKIP is sounding a little flat.

Carswell always look like he's taken an invisible right hook to his chin.

You staying up for the results FF?

Probably not, I've got to work tomorrow - and I'm freelance, they're not going to be happy if I'm giving it big Zzz's by lunchtime.

I'll give it until 2ish and then turn in. Gotta sit in the sun, drinking beer and watching cricket tomorrow

What's interesting is that I'm currently working on Threadneedle Street and the queues outside currency shops have been stretching down the street all week. At first I thought it was some really popular sandwich place. I'm guessing they all know something.

Gib about to announce.......

Farage says he's failed because of too much democracy.

He really could be a character on The Thick Of It.

Wow!!! Newcastle didn't go as predicted by Remain.

Just 50.7% for remain.....

Sunderland now.......

Leave - 82394

Remain - 51930

Bigger than predicted for Leave.

Get the bubbly on ice Borris!

The turkeys have voted for xmas.

Scotland will now look at leaving and now N Ireland might push for it. Neverendum...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aItpjF5vXc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EH1G4EwljM

This will be interesting.

Great news I, for one am pleased. I like forging my own reality

I really reeeaaallllllyyyy didn't believe it would go this way.
Best get some legal advice as work is going to get interesting.

I should start forging your own money too...

For me it's a sad day reading the news today.
Modern times egocentric blindness?

this videao says it all for me

Saw this on social media;

"History won't be kind to the baby boomers. They were handed a world saved from tyranny and rode an unprecedented wave of wealth, health and security leaving their children with a lifetime of debt. And in their twighlight years they have voted like a precocious child, with no comprehension of how global the world has become."

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”

Adolf Hitler

Will the admins please lock these threads? They are argumentative. Divisive and are achieving nothing. Vote is cast.

I see no value in locking, no one is being nasty and it will likely die down of its own accord? any one would think this was a dictatorship!

+1

It's not all doom and gloom is it?

Be careful what you wish for.

Load of scare mongering as usual

It's not scaremongering when it's actually happening.

Well the FTSE100 is higher than it was 3 months ago if that graph was a bit bigger it would show a little more context not a sharp fall and slow recover! Its actually higher than it was on June 17th a week before

This just shows how this whole thing has been taken out of context by both sides including all the scaremonger's here there and everywhere
Nobody knows what will happen whether it is the correct decision or not, so long as everybody does there bit for our country we will do fine

Nobody knows what will happen whether it is the correct decision or not, so long as everybody does there bit for our country we will do fine
[/quote]






So what does that actually mean?

Means whatever you want! but just be POSITIVE!

From the Beeb

"It was emblazoned across the Leave campaign's battle bus, but Nigel Farage says the £350m a week pledge for the NHS was "a mistake"."

The biggest mistake was that the 350m never existing.
What he said this morning was truly hysterical. I wonder how many people heard that and thought...

What, a politician was telling fibs??? But I believed him...

The guy's an idiot. He was asked outright by Suzanna Reid on This Morning, "Can you guarantee that the £350m you talked about will definitely be spent on the NHS?"

To which he gave a stuttered and typically Nige response backtracking and blaming other people.

Why didn't he just say, "No, sugartits, I can't guarantee that because I'm not in government."

I know, I heard. I couldn't believe he said it.
Next he'll say that immigration can't be controlled and the whole exit argument will collapse leaving a bitter taste and a confused population...

I can quite imagine some of the Brexit crowd swallowing the £350m claim in the whole "jam tomorrow" story.

Average age of around 26 in my office (around 1000 people) - deep gloom. Seems that it's the over-45s that wanted out

Yes it does feel that way. Possibly mainly the men from whom I've spoken to.

I received an email from the international CFO today, he was very glum about the situation. Alot of work to follow.

Looking at the guardian demographic graphs it was the less wealthy and less educated that voted out. Or as I put it, those with nothing to lose.

Still, York, Leeds and harrogate all voted in. Can we have an independent north / West Yorkshire??

That's what i thought at first but perhaps they are the ones that bear the brunt of it the most?

Quite possibly. Looking at all the graphs I'm shocked how many areas voted out!


I wasn't calling anyone names before all the crap starts mearly stating what the stats showed. It wasn't my opinion, just a conclusion I drew from it.

I know you wasn't and to be fair you have been one of the few that have been open minded and balanced, as much as i veered to the Leave side im certainly not feeling smug about it today!
But I think, feel,(I certainly don't know!) that it was the better of the two choices!

Tried to be!
It's emotive in any side and it also seems the middle...

As I said earlier it was an oldy v the young team which some pols showed to be the case. Whether the young team bothered voting I really don't know, but obviously like it or not the oldies did.

The young people were passionate voters - it's their future after all. They are also a generation that apparently is less selfish. The older ones seem to be more focused on what's good for them

Or putting right what they felt they did wrong in the 70's?

(Devils advocate)

Ha - The UK was in a shocking state in the 70's

I meant the voting into the EU.

Yes it was, can't argue with that!

(Hope you're enjoying the not personal debates BTW)

Oh Richard, of course people are going to vote for the way they see things as is exactly you're seeing things from your side of the fence.....

Well Richard you must have been one serious youngster in the 70's to observe what was going on, in your neck of the woods. I was married & my stomping ground was stress free, work was always available & my glass was always half full.....

My teenage years, Jim. I saw the result in the 80s in the places I worked which were on their very last legs. I went around Dagenham Ford Factory - what a mess. The rot set in in the early 70s.

Yes - I don't mean any of this to be personal - I want to play the ball not the man

As I've said in other threads too, I'm worried for many of the very people who voted out. I know I'm fine and I'm lucky enough not to need to be personally concerned about the outcome. I've had some very senior roles in some big companies where decisions are made on strategy and investment. I work in regulation and I work globally (I even have the word "Global" in my job title). I believe I have a better-than-average understanding how this will impact us. I have about 100 people reporting to me - about half in the UK (25% of which aren't British) and half in Singapore/Malaysia. I have to think about where I'm going to find scarce skills and I need to think about how these changes will affect how we do business in other countries (pretty much every country). I've just come back from living in Amsterdam - I worked with a huge variety of nationalities.

I want what's going to be best for the average person in the street. I'm just frustrated that most of the people have made, what I honestly believe, is the wrong decision. They've made it now - I'm disappointed for them and I just need to vent a bit.

I should add that one of my most junior guys who has been in the UK for 13 years, has two kids here and does a great job with a rare skill was truly and properly scared today.

We didn't actually get to vote whether we joined the EU (or EEC) back in the 70's BM. That decision was made by the then government.

What we actually had was a referendum whether to remain in it.

Interestingly enough, all those expats living in other EEC countries were specifically excluded from voting.

That seemed particularly unjust to me as my wife and I potentially had the most to lose and we were among those excluded.

Expats were only excluded if they had not lived in the uk for a number of years think it's 15 I cannot remember! Lot of changes in 15 years
My mum And dad , who moved to Spain in 2003 voted! Dad is Italian so is not aloud to vote! Even though he's lived in the uk for 50 odd years! Rules are rules no problem with that!

Well Richard there we have it, I obviously spent a sheltered life & with out sounding smug I've always felt happy with my lot. Ironically it's only now I look around & think what f.... went wrong with some people/the way some behave now & generally toss it all...... well not all but in every day life your average Joe & "Joe'ss" aint happy with life in general, but then again that's my work & I'm out & about all over the Inverness area.

Obviously slightly off topic & we both have stories/obsevations to tell.

The 15 year rule is this time round H_R.

Back in the 73 or 74 referendum we were specifically excluded if we did not have a UK address.

I am sure of this as I lived in SW France at the time. Then we could not even vote in French local elections.

I have no idea about then! I was born in 1973 so oblivious to the first round of referendums

Lots of uncertainty we just need to be positive!

When you walk through the storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark
At the end of the storm
There's a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of the lark

Vent away.
I was venting my frustrations before the outcome on here. I tried it verbally with friends and family, sadly most were very opinionated one way or the other so didn't understand and it ended up a shouting match. At least as a written piece you can say your point, try and articulate it so it's properly understood and hope you get a less shouty answer.

Also, thanks for explaining your position and situation as it makes it much clearer where you're coming from.

Thanks for putting me right, I wasn't quite sure and didn't look it up.

Do you mean expats this time round or in the 70's?

I was actually referring to the Labour government referendum in the 1970's.

We didn't have a UK address then so couldn't vote.

Just listening to Radio 4 this morning - it's utter chaos

Tories fighting amongst themselves
Labour plotting to overthrow their leader
SNP plotting to leave UK
NI getting Irish passports
UK credit rating pointed in the down direction
EU just wanting us out now
Lack of UK trade negotiators
No other parliament activity other than Brexit for years
Talk of just adopting EU laws for now
Brexit variously reneging already on £350m for NHS and immigration targets
No quick trade deal from USA
Etc

and the good news?

What an unholy mess.

Was this what the Brexiteers expected?

I'm also stunned by the number of people I've heard that voted Out but didn't really expect it to happen. I wonder if the vote was taken again next week, if we'd get the same result....?

The first three were the same 2 days ago.
There was no real economic growth anyway 2 days ago
Euro economic growth was poor to very modest and likely to decline 2 days ago
The outlook was modest (at best) for most things
UK credit rating will probably rise
We've been through a few recessions now due to following the pack ... the pack need educating too
The EU is a disaster waiting to happen IMO, they need a kick up the butt
Bureaucrats need to start listening to people instead of them deciding what they think is best
The world is full of people ... they want their say, we are lucky enough to be born in a country where this IS possible as we have seen
Economists don't see this as a great problem overall
Countries need to reconsider just what they want and let it be known .. we are doing that and we are the first. GB is always first with things
It's a mess, but we will pull through and no one knows what the future holds. We are a great country and a clever, respected country overall .... we'll pull through this.

Aye well, it's certainly not perfect, but I'm pretty much with Patch. The only thing that's got my attention, is the Scottish question. We should not be thinking on leaving the UK full stop. A bad idea all round. I envisage a stormy shouty time ahead as I said earlier, regarding this.

Well that's exciting news.....

"Pulling through this" isn't normally something that one says about something one asked for.

I thoroughly respect that we have a democracy and that's fabulous and that this was the choice of the people.

I'm just not sure a lot of them understood the consequences of what they were asking for.

....there's absolutely nothing positive in the reports on this.

I never thought it would be easy. As many other people did not. But, unless we ask everyone, we won't know.

It's the press and their leading questions as usual that are creating the stories that people choose to believe or they don't.

From what I have seen lots of people thought it would be hard, but after recessions they are not too bothered about short term (we hope) money issues. Most are looking for long term affects. Like deciding our own fate by opting out is.

Scottish independence is a logical and totally foreseeable outcome of a Brexit vote. I think it's now highly likely that Scotland will leave the UK and "join" the EU with the Euro (there's now no chance, if there ever was, of having the pound). I think if I still live in Scotland, even I'd vote to leave the UK as I think it would actually be best for the Highlands.

We are out of recession and we can probably expect another down-swing in the next 4 years (because that is just what seems to happen in the world). This will probably be the point when we are most vulnerable - just having left, with most of the effects of the uncertainty in place, and before we can do the things we need to do to correct what we've lost (trade deals etc).

My fear is that we are solving the wrong problem by leaving.

Hopefully, the shit slingers (I mean elected people and not elected as in the Euro Union) will realise that name calling, lies and bad mouthing does not win votes .... they probably won't .... and thats the real travesty here IMO. But you never know .....

Precisely. Which is why I've signed the petition for a re-vote.

Now here's a hypothesis.. Boris to be PM in October and renegotiating the terms of membership to the EU( he doesn't seem to be in any rush to invoke Article 50) and then calling another referendum now that the "voters "have seen the consequences. We might have had the vote but the clock doesn't start ticking until article 50 is started.

^ I think this too - Boris never wanted to leave the EU in the first place. For him the whole exercise has been a way to blindside Osborne as a successor to Cameron. The immigration issue also helped because it gives him an edge over Home Secretary May

But the young are much more outraged at things which they don't agree with. I saw a post which said that a class of teenagers were OUTRAGED at the result (not my caps) - that is a very disturbing attitude in my opinion as it says anyone who has an alternative perspective is wrong. To me it is an essential part of being human that we are different and have the ability to voice differences - it is also the principle of democracy.

As for the referendum, it may be about the future for young people, but they lack the knowledge and experience that only age can bring so the two balance each other out meaning that we all vote and get the overall result we vote for. Neither side has more weight or influence (what is the break point between young and old anyway?).

I find it distasteful that anybody who voted to leave, are having their vote ridiculed, whilst also being accused of having no intelligence, being racist, being the underclass or no understanding of anything that may happen!

If it was a vote to remain, these very same people would be saying that was democracy and the people have spoken!

These are the same people who are petitioning for another chance at voting and suggesting that London should be independent from the UK! REALLY!

"have a voice have a vote" " No wrong answer! try again!"

"have a voice have a vote" " No wrong answer! try again!"

"have a voice have a vote" " No wrong answer! try again!"

"have a voice have a vote" " No wrong answer! try again!"

The country has gone barking mad

Were you a Remain campaigner? Are you sore about the referendum result? Check out these 10 top self-comforting strategies.

1.) Call every white person who voted Leave a "racist", ignoring the fact that Europeans are also white. Make sure you ignore and marginalise ethnic minority leave voters.

2.) Claim that the (huge) turnout wasn't high enough. 72%? It should have been at least 75%! 80%? It should have been 85%! Make sure to keep moving the goalposts.

3.) Make a stupid e-petition demanding another referendum, just like the socialists did when Labour lost last year. We need to keep having referendums until we get the "right" result.

4.) Get over-excited about the economy, even if the impact has been pretty boring and mundane. Pretend that your 2:2 in English Literature makes you an expert on currency markets.

5.) Attack the very idea of Democracy, because it's only a good thing when it goes the way you want it to. Working class voters don't know what's good for them, but middle class liberals definitely do.

6.) Share memes bashing Brexit, ignoring the unwelcome and uncomfortable realisation that you are in the minority of public opinion.

7.) Boldly claim that Scotland will leave the UK, forgetting that A) they can't afford to B) the EU can't afford to take them C) 1.6m remain votes don't cancel out 2m NO votes.

8.) Make fun of Boris Johnson while sweating slightly and really hoping he doesn't become Prime Minister.

9.) Learn absolutely nothing from the campaign, blaming the result on everyone but yourself. Scaremongering and bullying are clearly the best tactics to use, there's no way they could possibly backfire.

10.) Curl up in a ball and cry yourself to sleep while listening to "Ode to Joy".

What is very clear is that a lot of people are upset because they know that voters who are xenophobic/racist/add additional insults, affected the vote which has resulted in us leaving the EU. Without them, we wouldn't have left. However that's not democracy. Unfortunately the media aren't helping as usual, showing clips of idiots advising the interviewers that they only voted out to stop 'the muslims' coming into England and blowing us all up.

I knew that if I'd have voted out, I'd expect to be branded something or other.

There would also be the same backlash now if we had voted to stay in. Lots of people talking about do-gooder liberals etc etc. And probably some nasty race related issues.

I must admit being a bit confused by hearing that Nicola Sturgeon is in discussions with the eu regards staying in? Is that even possible given it was a UK referendum and we are therefore all out ?

I can't see that another Scottish referendum is likely to be held anytime soon as there surely needs to be some time given for the Brexit dust to settle and understand the timeline for negotiations etc.

So what will happen now? Will the EU council and commission make it easy for us? If the UK thrives will other nations also want referendums? Could that spell the end for the EU? So will they instead impose import tariffs on goods from the UK?

Will Nissan, as an example still manufacture cars in the UK in 10 years if their products won't be competitive in the European market owing to import tariffs? Would they then move their operation to a nation inside the EU? Will other industries be affected in a similar way?

Now that sterling has dropped by 8% will all our imports be more expensive? As all oil is paid for in dollars will petrol prices go up? Doesn't that make all goods more expensive because of the cost of transport?

Now that Moody's has downgraded our economic outlook to negative will our government have to pay more interest on their debt? Would that mean further government spending cutbacks?

Now that the FTSE fell by over 3% in a single day will it continue to fall for months like it did after the financial crises, the dot com bubble and when we left the ERM? Will that mean FTSE listed companies have less ability to invest?

If immigration is cut and businesses have less access to cheap labour will they become less competitive? Or maybe they will choose to off-shore operations to maintain competitiveness. Will that mean fewer jobs in the UK?

Just asking.

Really! so the people you don't like, should not be able to vote as they don't count!! are you serious!!

It would seem you are only noticing the extremes there are extremists on both sides open your eyes and be a bit more honest to yourself, or do you believe everything the media tells you!

This is the one thing that is bugging me about this whole thing the viscous verbal attacks from both sides, as if they are god or something and know exactly how everything will unfold
Nobody does people have a vested interest in what suits their personal needs and vote accordingly

Just accept it! get over it and see people for who they are without branded them just because of the way they voted

I bet James Dyson is a racist then going by your analogy!

Im now walking away because i am not interested in falling out with people! I was just trying to give a balanced opinion without writing off other peoples opinions!

Good night

You need to re-read my post. I've written something completely different from what you think you've read edited to say I'm talking about a small minority in the first paragraph, if that helps your reading of it...

Article by Nick Cohen is worth reading: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars
Yeah, yeah Guardian haters can close eyes & ears now.Otherwise read on, excerpt here:
The real division in Britain is not between London and the north, Scotland and Wales or the old and young, but between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded. What tale will serve them now? On Thursday, they won by promising cuts in immigration. On Friday, Johnson and the Eurosceptic ideologue Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall. On Thursday, they promised the economy would boom. By Friday, the pound was at a 30-year low and Daily Mail readers holidaying abroad were learning not to believe what they read in the papers. On Thursday, they promised £350m extra a week for the NHS. On Friday, it turns out there are “no guarantees”.

If we could only find a halfway competent opposition, the very populist forces they have exploited and misled so grievously would turn on them. The fear in their eyes shows that they know it.

The young educated people might not have a lot of experience but they have the knowledge. This will also impact them far more than the folks being interviewed on the TV delighted to have their "freedom" many of whom look as though they won't be around to see article 50 enacted - let alone any "freedom".

Of course these young people have every right to be outraged. They can't afford houses, they'll be paying off their education debts much of their working lives and, as if they haven't been screwed enough by the generation that destroyed British industry, they see that they're being locked up in Little England by the generations that took it all, and that they'll have to pay to look after. Their outrage at least shows they care and that they understand. The vote is cast but they see that the generations that took it all from them have just voted selfishly again. I feel their outrage.

I don't see the point in levelling blame at one section of society or another. It was a democratic vote and we need to accept it in a similar way to a government that we didn't vote for.

Also I think you're in danger of implying that those other than "young educated people" are somehow lacking in cogent ability!

Editing to add that I have just seen in relation to the credit rating in the UK that the government can borrow at 1.08% for 10 years and under 2% for 30 years which are historic low borrowing rates so certainly no issues currently.

Of course these young people have every right to be outraged. They can't afford houses, they'll be paying off their education debts much of their working lives and, as if they haven't been screwed enough by the generation that destroyed British industry, they see that they're being locked up in Little England by the generations that took it all, and that they'll have to pay to look after. Their outrage at least shows they care and that they understand. The vote is cast but they see that the generations that took it all from them have just voted selfishly again. I feel their outrage.


The generation that took it all from them eh! that must includie their fathers and grandfathers that fought and died for them to give everything them on a plate for them now . My father fought in the Second World War from 39 to 45 to give people freedom what they have now, unfortunately he died in 72

Well - their fathers were born in the 60's and their grandfathers in the 40's so none were fighting in either world war.

I'm not looking to blame one section of the vote. If you follow the thread back, there was an insinuation that the young didn't bother to vote. I was explaining that they did. Then there was something about them being outraged and I was just saying I understood why that would be. As for young educated people, yet again I was responding to what I thought was an imbalanced point that young people are lacking "experience and knowledge". The truth is that they have lots of knowledge and (in my direct and recent experience" the experience that older folk are using to inform their decision was way out of date.

As I mentioned before - I work with 1000 (highly educated) people with an average age of 26. Friday was characterised by deep depression in the office. It's a democratic process and the result is the result but it's important to understand what our young people are thinking about the result.

MRS ..... Get some sleep please.

The reason bond yields are so low is the stagnant global economy which makes government bonds a more attractive invest vehicle compared with company shares and bonds. It's precisely why the situation is so dangerous. It means only a small rise in bond yields results in an enormous increase in the amount of interest our government pays on its debts. Look at bond yields of just 10 years ago. If they returned to that level UK plc would be bust.

Certainly it seems you're in contact with those that "feel the pain", but there will be plenty of others who thought differently.

Fair comment about the other points, but now is the time to do our utmost to look forward and survive (as we do well) in the changed circumstances and make the best of them.

What about the old educated people? They have knowledge and expereince. But what is education? for the young it is almost entirely theory, i.e. not reality. No education can give experience and knowledge together. How long do people have to be around for it to not matter? Seriously, how could that possibly be a position?



House prices are not just down to older people, and are not essentially something older people benefit from other than to pass on to the next generation, i.e. younger people. Education has to be paid for - the current generation have the situation where approximately 50% gain higher education, a generation ago it was under 10%. That difference meant that the previous generation who went to University had a differentiation in the job market when they graduated, got paid more and paid more tax which covered the cost of their education. Blair changed that and now the differentiation isn't there the cost has to be paid by someone, why should the previous generation pay twice, or even once for something they didn't receive (which would apply to 90% of them. It isn't little england, it is a whole world available to a global player - perspective is important (or is it just optimism v pessimism?).

I repeat, outrage is not appropriate in relation to people expressing their views in a democratic process, disappointment I can understand. But outrage requires that others are morally and ethically wrong by widely accepted definition. 17.5 million people were not morally or ethically wrong, they expressed their democratic right. That is how democracy works, some win, some don't. Dictatorship is the alternative and very few seem to win then

That isn't a question you asked, and the final sentence requires an "if" which is not a reality currently following brexit. With the falls in stock values in other countries and other currencies it is looking to be an unlikely "if" for the UK any time soon.

An historic global empire, building it's wealth from the world. The savour of a continent twice, reduced to bigotry and fear of a non waring invasion of working and non working migration.
We, the United Kingdom the common wealth the greatest super power of old, reduced to crying over this.

When you look at our history, our achievements what the British (that's Wales and English) have voted for should say something, it should say to the EU that perhaps they're not going in a good direction and that it needs looking at.

We have used and abused the poorer areas of the world for our own gain, we have still to accept the cultural changes that this has brought. These are the fears prayed upon by those seeking to damage the government, that the people we inspire through our history that are driven to be here, risking life a limb, see the value of our country. Do the people who live here see the same value?

It's a big mess, some feels self inflicted some is as a result of massive success.

It's time to stop moaning and move on, all I can hear is redefining the debate. The debate is over. Mitigation of the damage is paramount, then it's time to build on our strengths and talk our way into a country to be proud of.

@andyps

A few things:

Characterising Brexit voters they were older, less well-off and less-educated people according to the stats.

As for the younger people, it's not anything like entirely theory: they struggle to get a job, they can't buy a house, and they actually believe in an open world and getting on with their neighbours - typically they are much better travelled than earlier generations. That's experience of the real world. I think you patronise them. I'd put a youngster from my place of work up against a typical pensioner from Sunderland in a debate of the issues at stake any day of the week.

Yes - education has to be paid for. But it wasn't them (as you rightly point out) that encouraged more kids to go to university - it was their parents' generation. And why did they do that? Partly to improve our skills but as much to do with reducing unemployment.

Regardless of that, their parents' generation didn't pay university fees. And they aren't paying for them now. And they got onto the housing ladder cheaply.

I don't know why you're getting wound up about outrage. It shows they care and it's the job of the young.

They've probably seen the same things as me about places like Ebbw Vale who have benefited to the tune of £1.8bn from Europe and have voted out. If there was ever an example of the turkeys voting for xmas...

I'm more-or-less done.

I'll sit back and watch this whole unholy mess play out.

And when places like Sunderland and Ebbw Vale wonder what the hell has happened in 5-10 years time, I'll be able to tell them that they got the precise outcome they deserved as part of their democratic right and they used all of their knowledge and experience of the way foreign affairs, economics and business works to inform their decision. Good for them.

I want to reiterate that the decision will make almost no direct difference to me. None of my opinions on this have anything to do with me directly.

ETA - the only person in the outside world who thinks our vote was a good idea (even the Chinese think we've forked up) is Donald Trump. And that says it all. And he thought that the Scots were excited to be leaving. That's how stupid the man is.

Ah! we're back in the room. & life goes on.....

The other factor that causes increases in bond yields is a fear of default. We have just voted to leave "the bail out club". We already have an enormous debt problem in this country. We are still in deficit and still adding to that debt even at bond yields of 1.3%. Even a small increase will worsen that problem significantly.

I came to the conclusion last night that I'm not entering any further into discussions about the referendum here or elsewhere, had the forum been available first thing this morning I would have deleted my last posts if there were no replies. However, having been out this evening when the forum returned I obviously didn't get chance. So, no replies from me, things are what they are and people have varied views - that is what makes us human so long may that continue.

Well, I'm pretty disappointed in the responses from the Brexiteers on here. Nothing substantive just "The vote's over - suck it up". Suck what up, though? You've voted for no plan, your side is reneging on its key points and I'm still hearing no positive news from this. I'd have thought if the result was such a great idea, you'd have come to a robust defence of it and be lining up all the great news that is coming. Apart from keeping Johnny Foreigner out (assuming we don't want free trade with Europe), I'd love to hear all of the changes to laws and regulations you have in mind that's going to make life better for us all. I suspect the truth is that you don't know. Prove me wrong, please.

Well I'm off to work. Sun is shining, & life jogs on. I'm upbeat, my outlook on life is positive. Life is just too short gentlemen....

It's as if they noticed that the headmasters window was open so they lobbed a firework in and then ran off giggling. The only trouble is, now the whole school might burn down.
And it turns out that "project fear" was actually project reality.

Had a really terrible thought and might regret my vote now!!

Does this mean the de-regulation of the standard toilet roll orientation?

What will this mean to everyday people?

arrgh what have i done!

This is all I'm hearing, and I know there are quite a few embarrassed (not on here) people who wished they hadn't voted how they did.

Why should anyone just suck it up and move on? Pretty much half (maybe more than half now) of the voting public didn't (don't) want to leave the EU.

It isn't over and we may still stay in the EU.

What about them yellow pointy things on lorry wheels - will they still exist or can they be replaced with a different colour/shape? We might even find out the reason they exist in the first place............

Would they be the "pointers" on the wheel nuts? If so, they are there so as the driver can easily see if his nuts are coming undone.
Then he can tighten his nuts!

Spot on about regulations - we'll get to choose our own bog roll orientation and regulations for yellow pointy things. Taxes, planning, NHS, military, etc were all in our own hands anyway.

Our bananas can't be as bent as we like - hurrah, we're free!!!

Seems to me the Remainers are just like the EU governors they so want to stay with

Can't get a democratic vote on Mastricht ? Then lets ignore democracy and have another vote. Can't win that ? Lets rename what we want to do , call it something else and do want we want anyway. "**** Democracy"

I despair of the whole country's intolerance to others views and how they name call and insult especially from behind the safety of social media.

I was virtually away from any electronic communication between Wednesday evening and last night. Too preoccupied with surviving Goodwood for any real thought.

I'm very disappointed and quite fearful, but it has happened and we need to look forward and make the best of it we can.

Trying to force another referendum or not ratifying the result is embarrassingly naive and dangerously anti-democratic.

Potentially the ramifications of holding the referendum may prove far more divisive and destabilising than either result.

For many people this result has given them their first ever feeling of having made a difference politically - empowerment. That is what should make the establishment take notice - and feel ashamed for allowing the disengagement of so many people.

All I want to understand is what the Brexiteers will actually change (in detail not in broad "take back control" terms). I haven't heard it yet. I haven't heard what the fine voters of Ebbw Vale think will happen, for instance. I am just trying to understand what they see that I can't - that's not unreasonable.

On a separate note, a Dutch friend sent me a quote from our own Winston Churchill:
"The best argument against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with the average voter".

I'm all for being positive - I'm just looking for the things to be positive about. Brexiteers, please help.

Me too....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/hom...n-a7104191.html

I have a Brexiter friend who has decided since friday to put lots of Pro Britain posts on his facebook feed.

A recent one was a link to a version of the song Jerusalem by Katherine Jenkins. I reminded him that the original versus told the story of a young Jesus who travelled to England and set up a new Jerusalem. I commented that I hoped Jesus had a visa. He didn't see the irony

There's a lot of talk of people/organisations holding off on big purchases.

I'm not going to buy that Henry hoover now, and instead wait for the new "Henry Hurricane" 3000 watt super hoover!

And does this mean we get our weather back? Instead of just having nothing, punctuated by catastrophe.

The simple fact is it's a complete and utter mess. The only thing I hadn't given consideration to in this whole debate was how divisive it would be post vote. I fear it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And I'm not talking about the economy. The EU debate for many politicians was always deeply political and I think they'll now take it to another level.

They've proved that lower wattage motors don't make for lesser hoovers. Although if you're a man, you really should ignore that advice. Bigger is better...

It's OK about the power as the EU will release new regulations banning vacuum cleaners with British-sounding names with a Y in them

WOW

A car forum with all these politicians on it.

Out of interest, can someone define Racism.

No politicians just members of a democracy.

Why define racism? It's a pretty simple concept.

Define it then

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Quick question.... has there been any sort of manifesto produced that clearly states what will happen if we left the EU? Is that a no?

Whats to stop us leaving the EU, BUT the Gov implementing measures to replicate exactly what is happening now with regards to immigration/inclusion in the single market etc...

i.e. the Brexiters don't really get what they asked for.

Its no different ofcourse to a general election, parties making promises, people voting them into power and then not delivering those promises (tuition fees anyone?)

Correct, straight out of the Oxford English.

I was called a racist today for telling some bloke on a bike he needed to F@*^ing look before he pulled out of the junction in front of me. and also told to get back to my own country.

Incidentally he was of Asian origin probably born in England and I also was born here too.

Did you tell him to f*%k off back to the 70s you throwback freak?

Funnily enough no.

I was just confused as I am white with a midland accent.
I wonder which country he thought I was from.

I was travelling through Sparkbrook in Birmingham at the time.

I've heard that about you midlanders But then that's just a racist stereotype eh.

Must be

On a side note about racism, when I asked a local young white person if a non white (is that the pc term nowadays, never sure) person can be racist her answer was ...

"No of course not, black people cannot be racists"

I kid you not, that's what being taught in schools it would seem.

Oh and before we start calling her a thick moron, she'll probably get straight A's. (just for clarity)

...................................was you the only " honky " in sparkbrook today ? oops, too much watching " love thy neighbour " !

I still don't understand why you wanted it defined....

Part of the problem broadly with the immigration debate and more specifically with the Brexit discussion is that it somehow legitimises race-related views. I've lived and worked in 4 other countries (if you include Scotland - which, in the circumstances, seems fair) and I've never been subject to either racist or even nationalistic comment. Nationalism, racism and religion are all great seeds for hate to grow.

Something I didn't realise was that the current "2nd referendum" petition was created by a Brexiteer in anticipation of losing the vote

So, all those who say it wouldn't have happened if Brexit had lost seem to be wide of the mark - it seems to have happened BEFORE Brexit lost (or won) - too funny

https://www.facebook.com/Oliver.Healey.English.Democrats/posts/1741575492720794

As I'm about to board a flight to Germany I can assure you my motivation to vote leave wasn't anything remotely like that.
Part of the leave campaign highlighted that we are part of the world, not just Europe.
The news shows the worst in people. I hope to goodness leave didn't win purely because of such distasteful views but I fear that might be the case.

This is an astute observation. Something I argued way back on one of these threads. I believe the fault lies with the media and politicians. It is much easier to characterise someone worried about immigration as racist. It is easier to call Farage and his followers racist rather than argue the counter case for open borders. It makes better headlines to shout racists vote for Brexit. Consequently the debate seems to bring out racist views, but I wonder if it's always been there and never raised in our consciousness ?

BTW I know UKIP has racist members, so too do all the parties but we will never have a proper debate on immigration until we can recognise the difference.

BTW again Enoch Powell was hoisted on this petard but it seems now a lot of his worries and predictions have come to pass. Was he out and out racist or did polititians and media do for him as well ?

BTW The very topic/argument here make me feel very conscious that I ought to say I don't consider myself racist :-(

My only hope out of this unholy mess is that it redefine how we look at things in this country.

Slightly bizarrely, it looks like the Tories will come out of this more united than Labour despite the Blue-on-Blue view before the debate. There seem even a vague possibility that Osborne could survive which seemed unthinkable on Friday morning.

I do think that people might be more critical of what the politicians say and realise that their vote might actually count. I think young people will become more aware too.

And, as above, it might raise the racism debate to something more meaningful.

Ive been called a 'whitey' by a racist in the past. (I decided he is a racist even though it was clearly an innocently placed 'in the moment' figure of speech relevant to banter at the time - this way I can claim tens of thousands of pounds in compensation for mental anguish).

Thankfully I havent been called a Limey, by an anti-nationalist, because I'm not sure how much I could claim for that one.


Only joking ... sticks and stones etc............ !!

Jeremy Hunt has just given his support to a second referendum.

Jeremy Hunt has just given his support to a second referendum.

Just a thought: there's a real possibility that we could have an outcome that maybe only a (small) minority wanted: out of EU (which nearly half of the country didn't want) and yet with free movement of people (which many of the Brexiteers didn't want). After all, there were no manifestos that have to be delivered with the vote.

^ Oi. I said it first

Interesting viewpoint YouTube Clip

Absolutely - credit where it's due. It just seems like it might be coming to pass now. In fact, a conspiracy theorist could say that you have players on both teams and you get the result you wanted either way. The Tories answer the "Europe" debate once and for all, the long-anticipated transfer of power from DC to his successor takes place, nothing much else changes and with the added bonus that Labour goes into complete self-destruct. Losing Scotland pretty much guarantees Tory rule in any case.

I've been saying for some time that the time is right for a new political movement that rejects the out-dated idea of left and right and embraces a new political dynamic (and reality) that involves the electorate and the political establishment on a more equal footing. Communications today are such that (with checks and balances) we and our representatives should be able to be more informed and responsive. That doesn't absolve government from taking major, complex decisions (like whether to leave the EU, for instance), but it should lead to better decisions by the electorate to get what they want and better guidance for politicians in delivering it.

Unfortunately, I'm a bit busy for the next year or so, but if anyone fancies giving it a go, I'd vote for you.

I also think the government have missed a massive trick here.

If we had isolated, say, the top 5 things that people liked/disliked about the EU then those main points could be linked with a decision to remain or leave. If you vote leave you don't get X, but vote remain and you get X but you also get Y.

The Remain campaign could have been based on going into the detail about those things which people liked and disliked about EU, stating perhaps we are bound by EU regulations but we are going to our hardest to make sure we get a better deal OR implement nationwide measures to invest more to mitigate that problem.
- An overburdened NHS due to increased migration? Sure, we will invest more in public services and limit benefits for health tourists etc..

The same thing could have been applied to the Leave campaign. We don't like this about the EU, so vote leave and we will do this instead.....

At the moment they just seem to be making it up as they go along.

What seems to have been missed is that referenda are simply advisory.

Governments are not obliged to act upon them.

Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.

I had this very discussion with a lad on facebook last night. To many people seem to think we are out already.

Not sure if that is a government issue or just people being uneducated

As I said before, I can't help thinking that persuading the 52% of the population that voted Leave - a great many of whom are passionate supporters - that the referendum was simply an exercise in consultation and that actually the result they thought they had won isn't going to be implemented, on a technicality (albeit a reasonable important one), will be a tricky business to say the least.

Listening to the graceless and boorish crowing of Farage in the European Parliament today, he clearly seems to think that we'll be bringing down the steel gates on Fortress Britain next week, which will come as a surprise to pretty much everyone involved in extricating the UK from the Gordian Knot that binds us into Europe - even after Article 50 is triggered.

To think that many people in Europe now see him as representing me is a source of profound sadness, even heartbreak.

Exactly, I have been refusing to watch news programmes on TV simply to avoid having images of that braying jackass thrust at me.

That's a bit mean, Pete. I know some very personable and quiet jackasses!

I totally agree Neil .
It looks like NF has got another Bank Holiday in store for you from this year onwards

Taken from todays' news page of the European Parliament :

Independence Day? Isn't that when the huge alien spaceships lay waste to capitol cities across the planet? Not sure I want that...

Why not St. Georges Day.

We should have a day off for that.

Good idea - he was from a non-EU country too.

Maybe the day should be 'Definitely not St George's Day as he'll come and steal all our jobs' day.

Yesterday I carried out a vote within a group I'm associated with. 112 votes, 82 leave, 30 remain, interesting result for one week on.

Maybe it's time we all start to pull together and make the result work for us all.

Politicians, governments and unions come and go, empires rise and fall. In the words of Shakespeare 'That island of England breeds very valiant creatures' and whatever may befall us in the uncertain days, months and years to come I'm confident that together we will persevere and build a better England; an England with a positive role to play on the ever changing world stage. An England to be proud of. If we all pull together we might be able to made the word "Great" mean something again.

Unless you tell us what the group was, it's not a very meaningful statistic...

Maybe it was at a BREXIT post referendum party?

Or a UKIP morning after party?

I'd love to know what the group is? The Jaguar forum was about 70% leave, no surprise there.

I deal with businessmen and women all day every day. I've only met a couple who wanted to leave. Clearly not indicative of the UK though is it. Going by Facebook, no-one voted to leave, but they're all keeping quiet which I can understand.

I'm CO of a group of reenactors, this group covers a wide age band from 18-80 from East to West, North to south covering many different careers.

But seemingly not many different views on leaving the UK. What were the figures before the referendum?

Never carried out any form of vote before as we try to avoid discussing politic and religion.

I carried out this vote for my own benefit as my group covers such a wide area, age band and occupations. This vote and the vote last week both surprised me.

I take your point. But all it proves is that either the members of your group just don't accurately reflect the national position or that there is another factor at work skewing the result.

Also depends how honest and self-assured the individuals were. After the event, needing to be on the winning side, one may also now say the opposite of what one actually voted?

One reason I called for this vote because I strongly believe they do represent the nations position. There's only one common interest and that's history. Other than that we are all different. In this group we have; bus drivers, teachers, exMOD, Police, solicitors, ex-mayor, car park assistant, carpenters, students and the elderly to list just a few. Surely that a broad range.

My question to them if they had to vote again tomorrow which way would they vote. There's no reason for them to lie.

I'm not suggesting they were lying, simply that they don't represent how the nation as a whole voted. Either some of them have changed their minds (but you don't have the pre-referendum data) or there is another factor that you haven't discovered that predisposes them to a leave vote.
It's interesting, but incomplete!

The common interest in history already distorts the view - very possibly people who think of the "good old days" and are generally backward looking. It's hardly representative. The cycling commuting forum I'm part of voted 80% Remain. Very broad cross-section of people and politics originating from different parts of the country. The view is distorted because many cycling commuters are city-based.

I also wish people would stop saying about putting the "Great" back into Britain. The size of Britain hasn't changed. I'm sure the people of Great Somerford and the people of Little Somerford understand.

Especially as it actually comes from the French:

Bretagne = Brittany

Garande Bretagne = Greater Brittany = Great Britain.

So we could have a day off for a foreign saint and put the French back into our name. A good deal of us are foreigners anyway.

Chris Bryant MP sums it up nicely:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/..._n_9097614.html

Each person was asked to cast a vote IN or OUT as they all did last week, only difference we're one week on. It was up to the individual to decide for themselves which way they wanted to vote as they did last week. Even though my small but still a National vote had been taken as a new vote on the referendum it would clearly show a large swing towards leaving. I could say out of the 112 votes I had a 100% turn out. Which makes me think if we had a 100% turn out last week would my result represent that vote.

Comments regarding history distorts the view and "good old days" is far from the truth. Only comment that could be made is History shapes the future.

Understand some would like to change this result, maybe they should try to understand why 17+ million voted to leave.

As I wrote before, it's now time to move on and work together. As I will do to make this work. I voted IN I'm now over what happen last week and now look to the future, not to the past.

History shapes the future fits the rearward look.

I'm all for working together to move on. I'm looking to the 17 million to help me understand their thinking so I can now understand their plan and help them execute it. The trouble is, there doesn't seem to be a plan. And, there seems to be 17 million different ideas of what is going to happen. The other (just shy of 17 million) are looking to them to help point the way.

I've known a few over the years and I'd say that they do like a bit of history... Their vote would surely have to be swayed somewhat...

If you're all re-enacters why is anyone surprised they opted to go back in time.

Jonny you're wrong.

Surely by wanting to remain you have based that on past EU events (history) it can't be on future event because they haven't happened. To leave you are looking to the future.

Look back over EU history, see how it's developed and which direction it's heading. Do you want this country to be a state of the EU or ..........?

I'm not in a position to formulate a plan for the future of the UK or EU, only plan I have relates to my business and it's current 70% share of that market. How to maintain that figure with the hope to build a greater share.

I fully understand how the EU works this has been built up over 20 years dealing with them.

I've got nothing further to say on this matter as there isn't any right or wrong answer just individual opinions. Lets go back to using this site for the purpose it was set up for.

But this is the bit that frustrates me about this is that no-one will give any idea of how this will work. We seem to have voted for change for changes sake.

People then dip out of the discussion.

This forum is the General Chat forum - this is what it's for.

When people voted in they voted into the EEU, not a European parliament, court and potential army. It's gone from an economic union to trying to create a united States of Europe.

From asking the last generations, that is why many voted out. I dont know any of the biggoty types interviewed on TV it seems, although I guess their answer would be known before the question was asked.

Plenty of people have chosen to leave because they want to go back to a 'golden' age. Plenty of people have chosen to remain because of history as you rightly state. We can't go back to the 'golden' age (IMO) but we can keep many things as they are and try to change the bits that aren't quite right from within the EU.

It's frustrating that these things always end with 'nothing further to say' etc. Although I'd imagine there'd be some of that if it was the other way round.

Jonny. The reason these things end with "nothing further to say" is because you can't win an argument on "social media".

People jump on threads to make their point, which may or may not be valid to you, but it might be valid to someone else so you defend your argument and then defend it slightly to that other person until you feel you can't keep going or you get cross but don't want to swear and rant. Easier to say no more and go swear at the missus (Mr) about the idiots on the car forum.

Or explain yourself further! And have a debate about it, it's important...

I'd just like one person set out their detailed views of what they thought they were voting for - and not in a "jam tomorrow" way saying things like "freedom to decide" and "take back control" but specifics, squaring the circle of free trade and free movement of people. I would also like to know what laws & regulations we're going to change (for the better).

I even promise not to argue with it - I'd just like to see that at least someone thought this through properly before setting fire to the bridge.

MRS - I'll try. Rememember I don't necessarily subscribe to these views but perhaps unlike you I do understand them ! Go back to last Thursday and convince yourself that you firmly believe that Brussels is slowly eroding your influence over the law making in this country, your vote for a party's manifesto no longer guarantees that resulting policies can't be vetoed by Europe.

Further convince yourself that you are really really annoyed that your grandchildren can't get in the best local schools because either well heeled people buy their kids a place or you see the classrooms full of the children of immigrants.

Now I suspect that you are.probably quite well off but convince yourself that you actually earn a bit more than minimum wage and have just lost your job but you have landed an interview but all the other candidates are Polish and are willing to work for a lot less than the job you just lost.

So I could go on, convince yourself that you want to buy a house for the first time in your area. Think of the obstacles.

So on that Thursday what do you vote for in detail ? You don't know because the best anyone offered , or that you yourself may believe is perhaps the Australian way of controlling immigration, the best anyone offered was to spend £350m per week on improving the health service and housing and schools. No one told you in detail how they'd achieve this and as as sure as hell you don't know the rules for the European Trade area or how they might affect you if you vote out. But you do know this vote might change something because your last 3 votes at the general election did fccuk all so why not ?

I think there was insufficient detail given to voters during the campaign for anyone to answer your question, the polititians didn't know so how could the voters ? This is one instance of the turkeys for once voting to opt out of Christmas because they didn't like it.

Make of these thoughts what you will but I challenge you to put yourself in their shoes.

An excellent post, Downhillyryder and spot on in many respects. It explains why a lot of Labour voters abandoned the party as they feel it has moved to represent middle class real-ale socialists, more concerned with being multicultural than protecting traditional working class communities and jobs for British workers. Again, like you, I don't necessarily subscribe to the view, but I recognise it is there. There has been an article doing the rounds from the Trump campaign people saying that facts are useless in a campaign like this referendum - emotional connection is all. How right they were.

Sadly, as I said repeatedly before the referendum, I had no problem with people voting leave if they were doing it to achieve something they were genuinely being offered and understood what that was. It seems that almost nobody understood what the result would mean. On either side.

I did say I was leaving the discussion and meant it because there was a result and I do feel it has to be accepted - we are a democracy and the electorate voted. However, as you have requested, MRS, I'll give some explanation from my perspective.

My main concern was democracy and the way it was being taken away by the EU through the system that has been created whereby the actual decision makers are not elected or accountable and cannot be removed by the population of the EU - at least in the UK we have a chance to change them every 5 years. I don't agree with the comparison made by some between the EU commissioners and the House of Lords - the Lords provide a checks and balances role and do not form the regulation by themselves, the EU commissioners do form the regulation. Whilst I haven't managed to find it as a spoken quote from him, it was reported this week that Martin Schultz, President of the European Parliament stated "The British have violated the rules. It is not the #EU philosophy that the crowd can decide its fate" - if true that shows the contempt with which the EU leaders regard the population they want to control and I certainly don't want to be part of that. So the plan there is to ensure that the voice of the UK population is heard by the decision makers.

In terms of economic policy it is quite clear from the global changes that have taken place this week in markets and currencies that the UK makes a difference worldwide. We are a strong economy with a lot of resources and capabilities. The ability to use those on a global basis has been hampered by trade deals which the EU has and has not made as we can only do what the EU trade deals allow. Without those the UK can do trade deals wherever it wants which includes countries such as India and Australia where the EU have never bothered to set up deals. There is no reason why we can't continue to trade with all EU countries. As has repeatedly been pointed it we are a net importer from the EU so they genuinely do need us more than we need them. I live and work in an area of the UK which does receive grant support from the EU but even taking the lower estimate of the net contribution we have made to the EU we would have £140m per week to spend as we want rather than as the EU dictate. Whether that goes to the NHS, industry or other use it is a large sum to support the UK economy. The plan there is to use the resources we have to become a global player, building on the strengths we have as "large Britain" (thanks Jim, but I did include exactly that in my Facebook post last Friday morning).

Immigration was not an issue for me, possibly due to personal situation, but I acknowledge it is for some. The plan for that was clearly laid out by the leave campaign and involves an Australian style points system. With that the needs of the country can be met by people with the required skills from anywhere in the world, numbers being managed through the points required. My knowledge of this is limited but I don't see logic in open borders allowing anyone in, but fully recognise the need for immigration to meet specific needs.

As an overall caveat to this, I am not a politician and therefore not the one to create this plan, but I have confidence in the capability of the UK to prosper independently of the EU. As have some business leaders I respect. Edited to add I do expect that there will be some short term difficulties economically from the decision, although the market recovery indicates these will not be as bad as expected, particularly by the "experts". I also expect that over the long term we will benefit. It will never be possible to accurately say what difference it has made, but if I didn't think we would gain I may have voted differently - personal opinion but that is what it was, based on a lot of reading and information gathering. I will also just add, it was not about self interest for me, I have a house in Brittany (the small one) and do recognise my decision may make owning and visiting it more complex, but I'm prepared to pay that price.

So, whilst I may not have convinced you I would appreciate a reply with the plan you had for continued membership other than carry on as we have been, seeing the EU share of world GDP shrink as the number of member countries has grown. I promise not to argue with that either, but am genuinely interested to know what that plan was and if it did include becoming the United States of Europe with a single European legal system, currency, army and much else for all member states.

Cribbed from another forum but may give folk another perspective on immigration...

I'm a comfortably off member of the middle class, not rich, but comfortable. Whether we're in or out of the EU makes very little difference to me financially. However, if you are a member of the unskilled working poor in many parts of the country then the uncontrolled immigration has a material affect on your life. The wages of the jobs you can do are depressed by the large pool of young hard working migrants. If you manage to get promoted ahead of the better educated migrant, the chances are the wage will barely increase. Your rent (no chance of affording to buy) has been pushed up because of the demand for housing by the migrants. Landlords can up rents because 10 young men squeezed into a house can pay a lot more than a family. When I go into a doctor's surgery, I can usually split it between old people and young mothers with kids. Many of the recent migrants have started families and this is the reason why our birthrate has reversed it long term decline. In some areas, particularly in Eastern England, this sudden increase in children has outstripped the capacity of local doctors and schools to cope easily leading to a poorer service for all.

These are the people affected by one aspect of EU membership and it's pretty clear when you look at the areas that voted Leave most enthusiastically. For the chatting classes, the availability of migrant labour has been a boon, cheap plumbers, builders and nannys, whilst their BTL investments have given great returns thanks to demand outstripping supply.

Simply not acknowledging that large scale uncontrolled migration has downsides for many in society is the mistake made by the Labour Party, and they are going to get hammered for it in the next election. The referendum should have been a wake up call, however seeing some of the recent comments, many still haven't got it.

As for all the cataclysmic warnings about the economy, most of those who made the warnings are rowing back rather rapidly and now saying it won't be too bad after all once the shock wears off. No sign of George Osbourne as his 'Brexit Budget', even Sajid Javid ducked the question about when that would be. The lower pound will boost export as it did after the ERM exit.

Indeed, very well put the last few posts.

Well put, Andyps.

andyps - good, thoughtful post - as I said, you can't dispute people's right to vote for the outcome they want as long as they do it on an informed basis. You have clearly done that. I didn't see your Facebook post about Grande Bretagne, so forgive me for teaching my grandmother to suck oeufs.
I don't have any property in Brittany any more, but I do have my children there, so I'd be quite keen to retain links with the place, too.

TbirdX, the post you re-posted is all very well, but I'm not sure some of the points are based on fact; for instance the statistics I saw showed that immigrant families were less likely to start families than indigenous ones. Not sure who is right, but it does seem to be based on the poster's own interpretation of what he sees.

In any case, the immigration argument may well prove to be a red herring for reasons that have been gone over before. If we end up with an Australian-style points system, then it might satisfy those looking for reduced immigration - we will see. Possibly.

Personally, I don't accept that the EU represents an erosion of democracy for the citizens of the UK. On any issue that matters sufficiently, the UK could refuse to implement it and has done so in the past. Statistics will argue over the number of laws the UK has implemented due to the EU and how ludicrous or otherwise they are, but that's what statistics do.
The EU may go on to become a giant superstate or a United States of Europe, but I don't believe it will. Either way, we will have zero influence over its fate now, so even if it does, then maybe it will be because we resigned our responsibility to make it something better.

Once the dust settles (and presuming Lord Heseltine's idea of Parliament rejecting the deal negotiated doesn't occur), then I will do my best to make a contribution to a successful non-EU Britain.

Thanks for the posts. This is the only way people will make it work, by discussing the issues. I feel passionate about it for various reasons. However the big one is our economy. I've seen the effects over the years that recessions and other economic issues cause.





I agree completely.

It shouldn't be a political issue, but of course it will be. I'm just waiting for the politicians to completely this up as much as they can. I believe it will take a very long time for it to be put in place (if ever), and it will probably be a huge compromise. I don't think it'll be what many Out voters voted for.

Whilst this all happens we will suffer, especially those on lower incomes. The assurance by many that it will be worth it in the long run doesn't provide me with much comfort.

Lies damn lies and statistics Jim.

The underlying point is well made though I believe.

Now we are getting somewhere - thanks for the excellent posts.

@downhillryder - I do absolutely understand the position of those people and I do understand what they thought they would get by voting out - believe me. That's not what I'm really after - unless that's all there is. What I want to understand the detailed plans that the more informed (assuming there are some) people thought they were voting for. I wanted to understand which laws and regulations were being made in the EU which were so shackling us Brits. After all, if the power is all in Brussels, why are the Scots so keen to take power from Westminster and stay in the EU? Surely there's no power in Westminster and surely the EU are the dictators now? So, I think your notional Brexit voter has voted for a solution to the wrong problem because they weren't properly informed.

My position is relatively simple. As the Brexit side points out often enough - we have a strong economy. We achieved that as part of the EU. As a country, we have some very clear "red lines": we keep the £; we keep border controls; we keep our own army. These have never been up for (serious) debate. They were used as scaremongering by the Brexit campaign. We also retain control of all of the significant levers of control in our own country: tax raising powers, NHS, planning, education - we've even devolved these to the Scots to a large extent (and there's still a load more that they/we (I live there) want). So, there are some employment regulations, environmental regs, product regs and so on, that have been ceded to Brussels but, on the whole, these aren't bad and, on the whole, they protect your notional Brexiteer. And, in the vast majority of cases, we voted for them. The stuff that might be seen as "bad" for your notional Brexiteer, such as zero-hour contracts, is mostly home-grown.

So then we come to trade. Now, throughout history, it's been pretty clear that countries with good trading relations tended not to fight each other. And countries that trade freely get wealthier. Of course the EU's percentage is getting smaller because China's is getting bigger. And why is China so successful now? Because it has finally opened up to trade. But doing business with countries like China, Japan and the USA can be difficult and a good deal of that is precisely because they don't have common regulation to us. How would I know that? Because that's my job. We might not like all of the regulation in the EU but at least they are common. We're going to have to meet most of them whether we're in or out.

Now, I think the point about the EU being slow to make trade agreements is interesting. So which country is the newest one on their list? Ah yes, the UK. Why would we want to put ourselves through that with our biggest trading partner? Not least of all because we're going to need to negotiate a trade deal whilst throwing the free movement of people into the mix..

So, immigration - the thorny topic. I totally see why your notional Brexiteer thinks closing the border is a good thing. The trouble is, by voting out, I honestly believe they are cutting their own throats. The uncertainty alone (for however long it will take: 2.5 years min up to 5 years? Or more?) is going to kill (inward) investment. During which time, the borders remain open. More people fighting for less jobs. Even after that, we actually need a lot of these people. The principle is this: the freedom grows all of the economies - all of Europe gets better off, we create more jobs and migration settles down. Now, I recognise that this will take time - but it's a virtuous circle. In the meantime, we need to do more to resolve the issues your notional Brexiteer has: NHS, education, planning, minimum wage - I've a sense of deja vu - who has control of those? Ah yes - Us Brits.

Today has been quite amazing - Boris gone, Gove having upset everybody, May, the Remainer, looking favourite to be PM - blimey. The Labour side is even more messy. It's been an unpredictable week.

Boris lead the campaign, then runs like a frightened rabbit ...... Excellent. Not heard or seen since the vote at all; now decides he's not the man and will let someone else clean up the mess.

The England football team will be mightily relieved that all of this is going on.

@MRS, although your tireless contributions had me likening you to Peter Sellers' 'dying trumpeter' character - nothing personal here by the way! - I admire your persistence in that it has finally brought out the recent eloquent posts (Downhillryder, andyps) which very much sum up my own views but are articulated in a much better way.

It also heralds the cooling-down that is needed after a week of turmoil, which, to be honest we knew would happen maybe either way, but likely more so with the actual result.

Although contingency plans were made by some parties, and quickly referred to by Mark Carney in first instance, the newness of the situation must have made it quite difficult to have precise plans in place as it would have meant engaging the deal-making skills of those countries Britain has just left. It's not a habit of people in power to make hypothetical judgements, let alone publicly, and the media never seems to learn this in their unceasing efforts to probe such ideas from their victims.

We won't have seen the last of the reaction, but I suspect that the withdrawal of Boris Johnson for a start will be a glimmer of relief for not a few folk.

What I can't agree with is our all-too frequent propensity to funnel our wrath and indignation into one person alone - the vilification of Johnson by Helseltine doesn't really help anything and is just as much a smokescreen to save the hides of his fellow party members and indeed David Cameron who in his wisdom called this refendum. Neither was he solely to blame - the 'unrest' has been simmering for a while now, even perhaps as far back as the Iraq war protests and revelations, triggering major issues of trust.

Similarly Jeremy Corbyn is being crucified...whether he is thought to be a leader or not, he is certainly not responsible for making up the minds of voters. Education, experience and the correct age are.

I just wanted to understand what it was people were thinking was going to happen when they voted out. I am interested to see what is actually going to happen now and exactly who is going to lead it - that's far from clear.

It's certainly been spectacular today.

Et tu, Brute?

I noticed (remarkably) the URL of this and may well be the only person around who didn't know this seems to have something to do with online petitions....this particular site didn't appear to acknowledge the existence of the (to me) pointless current one attracting an apparent 4 million signatures

On another note, our lad's significant other, from near Barcelona, has lived and worked in Britain for probably half her life. Faced with the lengthy procedure of the citizenship application she has until now procrastinated about completing it. 10 days ago or so sparked a sudden flurry of activity....

Although I haven't asked her opinions on the UK issue it's interesting to conjecture considering the national fervour of the Catalunyans.

My understanding (which is critical to at least 3 of my team in the UK) is that if you've been here 5(?) years, you have automatic right to stay.

Anita certainly hopes that with twenty years residence and marriage for ten of those to me, there should be no issues.

I've just started the process to become registered as a German resident; I can't even get an appointment before September...

I discovered yesterday that Laura is legally classed as an Irish citizen due to her mother being born in Drogheda.

We don't intend to act on it but it's good to know she has the option.

Which? That mother was born in Ireland? Hahahaha! Very poor background knowledge there!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mov...or_descent.html

She's got my vote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hNzbDP9ll4&feature=youtu.be

Twas a joke as you originally said ... You discovered yesterday ..... Hence me saying what I said

Yeah, didn't get that. Sorry.

She's brilliant. It helps if you're from the Black Country to understand some of the stuff she comes up with

I might plumb for an Austrian passport, quite nice over there.....

10 month highs for FTSE - No wonder George Osborne is in hiding.

100 or 250?

With the £ so weak, shares on the FTSE are a bargain. But the FTSE 100 has little to do with the UK - these are mostly global companies (their value hasn't dropped, so their price in £ goes up).

Interest rates will drop even further, weakening the £ further and damaging the savings rates of those older people that have savings. UK property will seem even cheaper to the Chinese, Russians and Indians as will UK businesses.

Exports will boom meanwhile imports - including petrol, heating oil and food - will become more expensive. Good news for UK manufacturers (of which there aren't very many) not so good for the UK poor (of which there are a few - possibly the notional Brexiteers)

After working for ONS for years, interviewing people, you are living in cloud-cuckoo land if you think the middle classes won,t have voted for Brexit .I take it you are calling half of Devon,Cornwall, Kent etc etc idiots for voting Brexit.Hardly areas riddled with the lower classes i would think. People voted Brexit to control immigration by way of an Auusie style system. REgarding the post about savers suffering because of lack of interest in their savings accts, i would have thought they would be used to that by now, as its been so bloody low for years. If there is one good thing to come out of all this, is that Cameron and Corbyn should be gone by Xmas.

Nope those areas aren't necessarily filled with "lower classes" - but plenty of older people - especially Devon and Cornwall where people retire. They are also areas where there's plenty of agriculture and tourism which aren't typically well-paid. Kent is an area that's always been pretty UKIP-friendly. The greatest Out vote seems to be in Lincs - again, farming area. Let's remember though that it was 52-48.

I tend to think of Cameron as pretty good as politicians go (which is a low bar) - better than pretty much any option to replace him.