EU Fccuk Poll - In or Out

Please keep this thread for voting only
All posts will be moved to the other active thread

Come on Peeps get voting

Not trying to get two votes - I just can't delete one.

In.

Dont think you can change once you have voted

You can, but you have to wait forty years.

I think this could be the most uneducated decision for the UK populus ever. How can we possibly know?

We can't, but the number of weirdie MPs and 'tax consultants' pushing for Brexit is a bit of a clue.

That's why it's a referendum - because it's not to do with politics or values per se but just a matter of opinion on an incredibly complex topic.

There is another clue in the number of weirdie MPs and others pushing to remain as well!

I've decided I don't like democracy. I've just been having an argument with a guy on Facebook whose only reasons for wanting to vote out are because he doesn't want England to become a Muslim country and he doesn't want to die in a terrorist attack.

His vote is worth the same as everyone else's

Why did you bother arguing?

I voted in, but I think this has been an appalling campaign by both sides. Scaremongering, shocking manipulation of information and personal attacks that have done nothing to improve our image in Europe or further afield. If I was Europe, I might vote for Brexpulsion.

.

And just in passing, guess what -

It's too close to call!!

LOL @ Jim. You just described modern politics.
Nice of Nicola Sturgeon to balance things for those who can't stand Nigel Farage. Ridiculous woman.

And that Ali is democracy. No matter how much you dislike or ridicule his beliefs, he's entitled to hold them. There are people on here I fundamentally disagree with, but they are still entitled to vote

Yup, even Rk gets his say.

The problem with democracy is that fifty percent of the population are of less than average intelligence...

What's the saying: democracy is the worst way to govern a country, except for all the others?

Or another: Ninety percent of people can't think. Of the rest, ninety percent won't think. Of the remaining one percent, ninety percent don't have the information they need to make a judgement on and can't be bothered to get it. Doesn't leave a lot...

That reassuring statement Neil would in theory apply to everyone else then - unless the 'others' are perceived to be 'more' intelligent, fair, democratic, trustworthy etc. than ourselves.....

The point being Simon, that we have to make the best of what we have.

Hi all you British:
Please stay!

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/20...-on-front-page/

Hopefully the majority see sense on the day and vote 'OUT', leaving us to sort our own country out without the rest of Europe interfering. The second step in making this happen of course is to rid our country of those a"$eho13s at number 10 before we can even think about putting the 'Great' back in Britain

I heard the most ridiculous OUT argument on the radio yet the other day. The lady was saying that we'll be fine because we already comply with European regulation now so when we vote out we'll be OK. That's tantamount to admitting that we'll need to continue to comply with European regulation (much of which of course we will) - except now, of course, we won't have any say in what those regulations are (which was exactly the point the Norwegians that were interviewed made).

I simply don't know (because none of the Brexit crowd have ever said) what regulation we think is holding us back. Certainly, in my job, the regulation from the USA and, more recently, China is far more difficult to comply with because it is designed to make it difficult for us. So now the Brexit crowd want to add Europe to that list. I guess it won't matter much because manufacturing investment will move out so we won't need to bother with those regs. And we won't need to worry about "Johnny Foreigner" stealing "our" jobs because there won't be any.

My problem is that I am very well informed on this bit of the debate....

You and me both, MRS... but anyone who thinks that 'out' will miraculously result in the country being 'sorted' is deluding themselves.

As status quo will leave us in the same mess we're in....

I can see many positives on both sides, shame it's all hidden under propaganda and scaremongering from both sides.

No one knows what will happen if we vote out, but we know where we are if we stay and this country is a mess.

I'm on the fence - so am ready to be swayed to vote either way.

You've just swayed yourself! If we stay, the country is already falling apart, so why not try something that might actually work? I'm out all the way for that very reason

Listen to "More or Less" on radio 4 iplayer radio. Really interesting to examine the figure bandied about by both sides.

Facts like the UK has voted against more than 55 laws - but supported 2500.

We have almost the least regulations of any country in the world etc

Seemed like a very balanced programme.

The country isn't falling apart - it's actually in better shape than most.

Recessions are caused by uncertainty among other things. If we vote out, we will be plunged into uncertainty and it may or may not cause a recession. Either way, it won't be good. And this isn't based on gut feeling or belief- I already have clients seriously worried due to a drop in sales or contracts on hold. Anyone voting out thinking this will change once the voting is all over and we're on our way out is way off the mark. It will take years for this uncertainty to subside, and after that, only if leaving actually works.

One client has staff under consultation for redundancy purely because of this vote.

If you are voting out, please really think about the reasons why. If we do leave, it will be a very rocky road. Austerity on top of austerity will not be great.

Just because it's better than some doesn't mean it's doing well, and if it's doing well then it can support itself rather than others.

See these are the arguments in my head... For every positive for either side it can spin easily either way. Tbh I just want Cameron and his shitty Chancellor to go. They're both, imop, useless, wet and clueless.

You're right. Unfortunately it appears far too many people are swayed by Daily Mail style media coverage

Muzz- we both have a financial background. What mess are we in? My only issue currently that relates to the EU is that there needs to be better regulation on immigration/benefits/use of resources. However it is nowhere near as bad as the media make out

Come to West Yorkshire, you'll soon change your mind. The whole county is being destroyed.
Too many people are swayed BOTH WAYS by total crap, nonsense and lies. This whole campaign is full of nonsense. Even sensible people are starting to talk like loonies.

Can't disagree with the campaign. Boris would choose to remain out of choice. He's only doing it to become PM... How's it being destroyed?

You'll have to do better than that in explaining what's wrong. I say again that the UK is doing better than most. Because one region isn't doing so well (allegedly) doesn't mean the whole place is going to the dogs.

Yes the UK is doing better than most, so it can suvive on its own. So you've answered one thing.

How's it being destroyed? come visit, take a walk around. There are nutters raping school girls, opposing nutters shooting MP's...

That's correct, I'm not on anyone side, like you all are, in out, migration is good bad in different I don't care all I want is change, the populus to wake up. It's a changing world, migration is good and bad, a trade union Is good and bad.

America, they have different rules and laws and are plauged by them (look at all the shootings) France are stuck in pre Maggie days when it comes to labour, China, well most people accept China is bent (but look how STRONG they are)!

It's a world wide issue, not local, not national it's international, small single minded comments done work. The two threads on here are so narrow to an individuals pov it hurts.

I don't know what's best, no one else does either, if you think you do then you are a total fool cos you can't see the future and don't have the slightest insight into the real workings of the world.

It bores me stupid, it really does.

Barnacles long post summed it up for me about how much better xyz was, so much synacism, so much "I know better than you" well for once I can honestly say, no you don't. Neither do I, no one does.

Vote for what you think is right, hope the outcome is what you want.

I'm nervous as hell, in and who knows - there could be mass migration like you've never seen and the likes of which could crush this small island. Lest we forget all the tolls paid for being strong and doing well.

We could leave, but then who cares about 60 million people.on a small island when there is a whole world to trade with??

All the arguments I've heard are hollow and weak, not one has shouted out, with foundation in either direction. I know what I see. I see a country being lead down the garden path by a fool making promises in return for power. Now he realises what he's unleashed. The end of the UK? End of Europe? Pretty big steak for the pomp of one who wished to be elected, made a promise to the electorate for a referendum.

MRS, I don't have to explain all, I said come visit, come live away from your isolated life in Inverness, come see Bradford, Halifax, Keighley. See what their history says and where they are now and I'll show you proud, prosperous places that have fallen into the gutter.

Plus, you're all not listening, I'm not preaching in either direction. There are good basic reasons for both votes.

And you tell this to't youth of today and they don't believe you!

You don't have to explain anything, BM, but if you want anyone to respect what you say (not, apparently a foregone conclusion) then it certainly helps.

I grew up in Yorkshire in the 70s and 80s and watched manufacturing industry and mining die difficult deaths for a variety of reasons. I would argue that the loss of these, and in particular the textiles industry, did more to alter the face of West Yorks than most other factors in modern times. This is where your "once proud" cities lost out. And, apart from enjoying the faint sound of brass bands in the background, like a Yorkshire Tea advert, I can't see what your point is.
As you might (or might not) have been saying, this has little or nothing to do with the debate about Europe. Nor, incidentally, does the thankfully rare, but nevertheless nasty, practice of preying on vulnerable girls.

So, no, you don't have to explain yourself to MRS or anyone else, but if you don't, it does make what you are saying a bit unclear. That's the point of explaining.

Sorry, that was a rather long rant... It's frustration more than anything, the whole debate has turned into spin and scaremongering. Facts are quoted out of context or with no context at all, experts are wheeled out (there are so many experts that know what the implications of an exit are it makes me laugh) - a classic is who will do the jobs if the migrants are forced to leave? Simple answer, the unemployed.

Ah, but then what about the skilled workers they'll say

Well, we allowed a points system so if they have a value to the economy they'll be allowed to carry on.

And so back and forth it would go.

Then there's trade deals, exports to Europe are 10%, next person says 40%.... Then imports from are 25% then 50%....

Again, no clear picture.

Other quotes: the UK is in a much better financial position than many other countries. But it will fall apart outside Europe. Will it? If it is strong then it has power to negotiate, if it isn't doing that well then we have more fibs.

I listen to Cameron and he can't give a straight answer, farage talks like a leader, presents well the only issue is what he talks about, if he was for the remain I dare say I'd be sold.

The parent company for where I work is based outside lille, so and exit has massive implications for me. Is it selfish to vote based on this micro view without thinking about other industry that may benefit?

I said come visit an old Mill town / city, that's were you can see the issues in action. You are correct Jim, the 70's did there damage, the recession of the 90's kicked them pretty hard too. Now, in the last 5 years I've seen a change like I couldn't believe possible. You know it's bad when the Asian population starts slagging off immigration!

Apologies if I came across rude, it wasn't my intention at all I'm just a frustrated logical accountant that feels like he's being sold something by a marketing team quoting costs that you damn well know are bollocks.

Just to pick up on the point about textiles in Yorkshire Jim, I can't find (and haven't got much time to look at the moment) the statistic that I saw which said that there are more textiles manufactured in Yorkshire now than at any time in history, just that there are a lot less people involved in making them - a second industrial revolution if you like.

I totally agree with this (from both sides). The end.

If you want facts, I encourage you again to listen to "More or Less" on the Radio iPlayer - it's very clear and seemingly unbiased. It goes to the root of the numbers. Don't listen to the spin - get the facts. Being properly informed is really a duty before you vote.

Agree MRS. A Voice of Reason amongst the rants and drivel.

I shall listen this afternoon, be nice to hear some truth!

Thank you

I listened to the first half of the Referendum omnibus this afternoon. Very well presented and it seemed equally ready to dismiss or challenge claims from either side. Worth an hour of anyone's time.

Yup - I found it very balanced and interesting. Frankly, if people are properly informed, I don't mind which way they vote.

Amen to that.

It's in stark contrast to the TV debates and very well presented.
It confirmed my fears that most of what is quoted is out of context or in some cases a nonsense stat to begin with - gdp / households. Who in their right minds believes gdp I'd driven by or relates to how many houses there are??

I think there should be a third vote, the "shake it all about" vote. I couldn't stand either side gaining victory, I am hoping for a draw.

It would alo be nice if newspapers and news channels gave unbiased opinions . I have had the misfortune to have the ' mirror 'delivered every day [ thanks grandad ] and the coverage borders on the ridiculous.

If the populus decide to exit the European 'Union'? tomorrow it is still not a done deal as our sovereignity/decision rests with parliament alone. Paliamentary statutes will still have to be proposed,made,voted on in both houses.

If our decision is 'stay in' then parliament will probably vote on making that irrevocable forever.

If our decision is 'get the hell out as quick as possible, why were we so gullible in the first place?' then parliament will probably be wined and dined by the other euro states with extra (devious short term) perks for the UK - and then we will have another referendum to see if the people would now like to stay in under a magical new reformed european block.
And of course once we've been duped it will be an all out effort to remove the negotiated short term perks as soon as possible.





Did you know that we(UK) are a member of the Commonwealth?.
(The Commonwealth of Nations, previously the British Commonwealth)

This seems to have worked as a trading and moral membership for many decades without the need for interference & political union - although of course our current membership of the EU has forced local trading agreements between UK & Commonwealth partners to be ostensibly outlawed when they conflict with the Eurobloc closed shop.

Perhaps membership of the Commonwealth (aka: the Common - WEALTH) should be ceded by the UK if we masochistically stay with the eurobloc.

I just don't agree with Referendums. I voted in the general election and think the government should be making such complex decisions. We the public will never get the truth on which is right in this, much like the Scottish referendum. All it does is stir up hatred.

Very sad.

John

Why on earth would they do that? And how could it ever be enforceable? They wouldn't and it isn't.

The Commonwealth is an entirely different set up and, with the Queen as the head of it, it's probably got more political union than you imagine. There are also fees and no free trade zone. I'm not sure why it's is relevant to this discussion though I seem to remember it being called a "eurosceptic fantasy" or similar

They will, and it is, i'm afraid.



Yes, it would be embarrassing for the Queen to be head of a world group, where the Country that she lives in doesn't live to the same cooperative values.
And it has little political union. But many Commonwealth nations do run a legal and other systems nurtured from 'the Mother Country'.
And the relevance to the topic ? - perhaps just an interjection to suggest that other fair methods of world collaboration can work far better/best.

You'll have to explain how it can be irrevocable - what law in the UK was ever thus?

Too funny on the Commonwealth - have you seen which countries are in it and the records of some of them? It's mostly just a British Empire Old Boys club

Do you really think that the Federal Europe is NOT the next step??????. Do you really think that from that time the UK will have PERMISSION to make its own decisions??????.

Come on you anti brexits, wake up and smell the roses !!!!!!!!!!.


And yes, all Countries have atrocities on their conscience. In the past, in the present, and more than likely in the future.
And I mean ALL Countries.

Why is it that Leavers speak in caps-lock?

And btw, I don't want to be a pedant but I think you mean 'smell the coffee', smelling the roses indicates that all is well and our relationship with the EU is a wonderful thing.

A federal Europe isn't in the slightest bit inevitable. If you believe it is, you haven't understood the sentiment in much of Europe at all. I spent the last two years living in NL - no chance of them wanting a federal Europe, for instance. I don't see any situation where Britain will be part of a federal Europe.

The Commonwealth is irrelevant.

We dont. we TYPE in caps-lock.


smelling the roses sounds ok to me, it will be like a realisation when it comes to you.
I think the coffee option is probably a euro spinoff, so we'll have none of that thank you very much.




So so wrong. I am a Commonwealth citizen. The European Union is irrelevant.



* In case anyone hasnt realised........... my vote tomorrow will not consist of anything relating to staying in, my descendants will thank me for their freedom

JonH - would you support Scottish and Welsh independence then?

Yes, of course.
Insofar as I would also support English and (Northern)Irish independance, as we are all equals in this British democracy.

So you'd be happy with borders in those places and mostly those nationals being in Europe?

As for Ireland, they wanted nothing of the Commonwealth but are enthusiastic Europeans.

Speaking in caps-lock was deliberate, the only answer Leavers have is TAKE BACK CONTROL, over and over, just as Lynton Crosby has instructed them.

Question:

Why was sturgeon on the in when she was on the out for Scotland? Same arguments about control, economy etc...

Because she wants Scotland as far left and "progressive" as possible. "Out" for the Scottish referendum achieves that, as does "In" for the EU referendum, when compared to each alternative.

She was - but the argument doesn't necessarily work in both directions. If you believe that being in Europe gives you no sovereignty as the Brexiteers do, the logic follows that you need to allow Scotland its own sovereignty. But, if you believe that countries retain adequate sovereignty within Europe, having more of your own control makes sense. The fact that the EC has pushed more calls for independence around Europe (split of Belgium, Catalonia, Basques, Scotland etc) shows that potentially small nations feel like they will have more control as an independent part of Europe than part of a big nation.

Frankly I'd have some sympathy with another Scottish independence vote in event of a Brexit - and I'd get to vote too. And I was very anti in the last one.

Ah, never looked at it like that. Just saw her as Mary Mary...

Anyone watching the debate or lack of on Ch4?

Do you mean Ireland or Northern Ireland?
If you meant Ireland,then it's not hard to understand them wanting nothing of the commonwealth due to who the commonwealth leader is.

Enthusiastic Europeans you say,well why not? They know they are a small island country and the help was offered.
Both hands grabbed it,to right I say.

Why would Ireland be any different to many of the other Commonwealth countries who weren't particularly happy about being ruled by the UK?

It was thier choice,and the choice was not to be part of it. If thier reasons were to do with past history with Britain then fair play to them.

Same reason Scotland and Wales don't.... No one wants to be controlled by someone else. One man's good is another's bad.

They also f'in hate the English, like the Welsh and Scots...

Of course. My point was to JonH: if the EU is so terrible and the Commonwealth so fabulous, why would Ireland be part of the former and not of the latter? I totally get that Ireland might not want to be part of the Commonwealth (though if the Brits had handled the Uprising better, history might have been very different) and I totally get why Ireland is in the EU. I'm just not sure JonH does.

As you can imagine I am for staying in Europe.
Won't I don't like about the out situation is that it seems to have brain washed people whose opinion is normally balanced.

They seem to have just jumped on the immigrant bandwagon and for some reason on social media they keep banging on about respect for our fallen soldiers and generally lovey dovey up to the royal family.

They have gone mad! Do they think that in voters don't respect others in any way?

It's like they have turned into moronic sheep!

*45% of Scots...

That's very true....

I wonder why it is that the broadcasters are required by law and regulation to maintain a balanced reporting, with equal airtime for both parties, while the newspapers, in many cases owned by the same people as the newspapers, can spew bile and hatred about the viewpoint they don't like?

That's a very general and biased comment about approximately 50% of the population.

The in crowd are using the murder of an MP and mother for their gains on many forms of social media. Which is just as bad if not worse.

This is a balanced view of someone who may turn up and use ip dip do to select a box..... Cos I still don't feel I could vote either way with heart and head.

General view yes biased no. I just never mentioned the crap the IN crowd were giving out.

Honestly I am not voting. I can't see past the crap everywhere to get a true picture.

I suppose it's a cop out on my part. But living in a very insular part of the world for the past 14 years can make you not care to much.

I'm more worried that I have 5 gardens to mow twice a week in my spare time at the moment. Bloody grass won't stop growing.

How can you call anyone names for having an opinion?

The country is in ruins because of fools like you who didn't vote out 41 years ago. We have another chance here and Im taking mine........OUT!

The in voters seem to be the blinkered, I'm alright, it wont affect me types and sod the rest of the country and generations.

Think the out voters are far from being sheep and more the opposite, prepared to try something new and stop this country completely going down the sewer.

Based on that, I think you are the moronic sheep!

TAKING CONTROL UNDERPINS EVERYTHING ELSE................CONTROL EVERYTHING FROM HUMAN RIGHTS LAWS TO IMMIGRATION AND WE DONT NEED TO PAY ANOTHER COUNTRY TO DECIDE WHAT WE CAN AND CANT DO..........SIMPLE!

COULD YOU IMAGINE AUSTRALIA PAYING JAPAN TO MAKE ITS DECISIONS......OR CANADA LISTENING TO AMERICA, NO BECAUSE ITS ABSURD

He's saying there are people out there who have made a decision without considering the issue fully or even at all apart from one or two issues. These people are affectionately called 'sheep'. These people can be found on both sides of the argument. Magooagain has made a decision based on various factors and certainly can't be called a sheep.

You also have not considered all the facts if you believe Britain is ruined. The only way you could say that is if the only indicator is how many 'foreigners' have come into the country over the years...

People on both sides can be called sheep and I beg to differ but magooagain did make a generalisation, which was my point. Im sure he can respond on his own too without someone else assuming they know what he/she meant.

How about the privatisation and destruction of every industry we once had, ship building, steel, coal, motor etc etc. Importing rather than making our own and that includes bringing in cheap labour rather than training our own. Not to mention the strain on the NHS due to immigration and what about fat cat bankers living outside the UK bleeding the country dry and avoiding paying into our tax system. See, Ive read and researched before making my decision but if Im a sheep then so be it
TEAM 'OUT'

I guessed that would be your answer bar privatisation, which I can't disagree with.

The loss to the economy from 'fat cat bankers' compared with your average man in the street fiddling the system is minuscule and not even worth the oxygen.

I'd like to see your figures that shows the issues with the NHS are due to immigration and not austerity/mismanagement/life expectancy etc.

I know of many businesses (real life, not the Tabloids) that have had to employ foreign workers because no one else wanted to do the work.

Using the EU as a scapegoat isn't the answer, it's a cop-out.

Well you have your chance today, my vote has already been cast via postal vote........OUT

.....

Clintos, you may have done some research but have you understood what you've been reading. Privatisation has been driven by the same rightwing tranche of tory MPs that are now pushing for leaving. The NHS would collapse without using immigrant labour - since the tory's austerity measures stopped training where else are they going to come from? Not to mention 1.8m pensioners returning from Spain clogging up the wards. Those fat cats not paying tax are pro-brexit - Anthoney Bamford, chairman of JCB and Brexit posterboy is the most obvious example, but also Aaron Banks - brexit's biggest donor, the Barclay Brothers, etc.

You're actually a Remainer.

No, definitely a leaver

I've heard this argument a fair bit over the past week or so. What concerns me is that some people seem to believe that the problems in this country can be fixed simply by "trying something new", having a bit of a "stab" or a "punt" at going it alone. Like somehow this will be the answer to everything despite there being a complete lack of evidence to support this being the case.

Leaving the EU is an irreversible decision. I just hope people ultimately vote based on a real understanding of the implications of leaving, and not simply based on some kind of emotional "whim", or sense of nationalist pride built around this false assertion that somehow our sovereignty and national identity are being destroyed by the EU.

Also I must say that the atmosphere of hostility that has been created towards immigrants during this campaign has been nothing short of disgraceful. As an immigrant myself (from outside the EU) with an immigrant EU wife, we've never felt so unwelcome in the 10 years we've lived here. It's a sad state of affairs indeed.

Taken Leave of your senses maybe - your reasons point to Remain, but I guess for you its too late now.

thank our leaders for not sending back the extremists who want to change our identity for that one. I fully understand why there is still and always will be racism in our country and there is no smoke without fire. We live in fear these days of being blown up or butchered on the streets by some extremist nutjob and we welcome millions with open arms...............turkey is about to join the Eu and then what?

Hopefully the 'OUT' camp win this one and then revisit this thread in a few years and let me know whether things have improved in this country or not, Im sure you will be happy...................I fear the results have already been cooked to stay in though as they were 41 years ago..............

I don't live in fear, and Turkey are not joining the EU anytime soon. It requires the agreement of all member states to agree to accession and that includes Cyprus, who have been 'at war' with them since 1974.

you living in fear is not my concern. What is my concern is the future of my children and the fact that they don't even want to take a summer holiday in spain in case they are shot on the beach, shot out the sky or stabbed in the street. A sad day when our future generation feels like this and Im here to protect them and do what I can until they are old enough to vote themselves.........or leave the UK

Clintos, you've been sold a whole barrel of Brexit Kool-Aid and you've swallowed the lot.

Btw, if the Leavers win today, there is some good news - Osbourne will be gone, unfotunately those that know these things are saying that he'll be replaced by Andrea Leadsom's patronising fizzog. That'll be the same Andrea Leadsom that used an offshore tax vehicle to purchase two buy-to-let flats for her children. You couldn't make it up...

Absolutely. We elect politicians (love them or hate them) to make decisions of this magnitude.

pmsl.....and you stayers are happy to swallow the same sh1te for the rest of your life, so carry on helping take the UK further down the pan

Aye, didn't receive a response to this one I see................lets see what tosh you can make up now

As I said initially, I'm not living in fear. I don't think I'll be shot on a beach in Spain. And I was sort of hoping my son would think about going to a university in the Netherlands - which if we're out he won't be able to do, cos it would save us twenty-grand.

BRITAIN faces a tumultuous decision today because of a relatively small number of annoying, obsessive , experts have confirmed.

The country will vote on whether to remain in the European Union thanks to the weirdest members of the Conservative Party and a man who sounds like an angry duck and looks like a monkey had sex with a trout.

Professor Henry Brubaker, of the Institute for Studies, said: “Like me, you were probably minding your own business and managing not to think about the EU because it’s so utterly tedious.

“If you did ever think about it then it would probably have been along the lines of ‘it’s a bureaucracy and they tend not to be perfect, but I realise I have to accept that because I’m not a child’.

“But then some right wing oddballs decide to inflict their pathetic neuroses and tawdry power struggles on the rest of us, and so now we all hate each other more than ever. Spiffing.”

It's this complete and utter bullshit, scaremongering and xenophobia that the Leave camp have been trotting out for the past 3 months that convince Sheep like you to vote leave.

I hope if we leave the EU then the UK will return to be the Utopia you assume it will be.

Baaaaaaaaaa

ORDINARY workers are torn over whether they would prefer being exploited by corporations inside or outside of the European Union.

Research by the Institute for Studies found a precisely equal referendum split between non-executive workers who will still have to work very hard for barely enough money, regardless of the political context.

Telesales operative Tom Logan said: “While we are part of the EU, I come here every morning, sit in this chair, put on my headphones and grind it out until 6pm apart from lunchtime and some monitored toilet breaks.

“At the end of the week I have barely enough money to pay my rent, while the bosses of the corporation that employs me get on private jets and fly somewhere peaceful to eat lobsters the size of labradors.

“If we vote ‘leave’, pretty much the same thing is going to happen. It’s an exciting time.”

Retail worker Nikki Hollis said: “Last week loads of my friends got laid off because of ’tough trading conditions’ and I found out I wasn’t getting a pension because my boss needs the money for his divorce.

“There’s nothing I can do about any of this because I went to a state school and am not allowed to have hopes and dreams.

its not bullshit, its fact. Take your head from out of the sand and open your eyes!!!!

I know one thing for sure; if we stay in the EU nothing will improve but only get worse............

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Can you point me to anything (apart from UKIP/Leave propoganda/lies) where it shows Turkey is about to join the EU.

My head will be on the sand this summer as I soak up the Sun in Southern Europe with my wife and 3 children

Can we please keep this a vaguely civilised debate rather than a series of rants Clinton?

You have already voted, that's fine, but please stop insulting those who disagree with you.

Going to Boosted7's point about him and his wife being made to feel unwelcome in this country, quite frankly I am ashamed that such prejudices have been so widely disseminated by *any* political group.

Do you know the tree main causes of blindness?
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1: Politics

2: Religion

3: Cataracts

How old are your children?

...........scaremongering, HAHA , think your'e on about the remain group there, surely ? Europe wants us to stay so we can fund countries like Poland to the tune of mllions and fund the beaurocrats in Luxenburg and Brussels .Maybe you should find a graph of which countries in the EU pay what and recieve what....then you might vote leave.

That's who I blame, them pesky Luxenburg beaurocrats.

I'm voting out by-the-way. That's my choice

surprisingly, me too

No, it's not a surprise

I find it hard to reason with some people......

Conspiracy? What conspiracy.....

Wait until you hear about how strange it is that the residents of Romford and Basildon, the very beating heart of UKIP, have been housebounded by government flooding.

They should probably take some jet fuel in case they need to melt some steel beams on the way home.

May I bring your attention to the following Peter..........



So tell me again, where did the insults, rants and name calling start?

Is this a thread where all can express opinions or not. Seems that a select few can insult but not expect any response. I guess the admins are within a certain clique but again expect to probably lose my membership now for touching a nerve. Let it be said that there was no fowl language or indeed insults from this corner, so carry on guys. I always said that politics didn't have a place on here.......I rest my case!

It is not a stay in clique Clinton; the very fact that you and others in favour of exit have posted so prolifically on here would tend to demonstrate that fact.

There is no need for insults, no matter which view of the debate a person takes.

Regarding Clintos' edit, The admin here are not within "a certain clique". Each of us has a personal view which may or may not have been expressed on this forum.

You really shouldn't believe everything you read.........

My head will be on the sand in Spain too in July but it will be nice knowing that I will hopefully be coming back to a free UK

I think if you count the amount of posts made in total on this thread that the stay in campaigners have posted approx. 60% and are irritated by those posting against it..............I would guess you a definitely a stay in voter

And I agree, insults are out of order but to put context on this matter, you need to be more accurate in your accusations.

Im done here, change the thread name to the stay in campaigners

Clintos it was a general comment not aimed at anyone person in particular.

If it still offends you then you will just have to suck it up pal.

I said earlier that I can't understand the way the out and in question has been blown into such a big miss hit of opinions etc.
What you have wrote in your posts has not helped my understanding.

Anyways I got grass to cut.

Whether I am a "stay in voter" has nothing to do with it Clintos.

The fact is that forum users sign up to certain standards of behaviour. Insulting other members is not part of that etiquette.

Exactly the same here. I just cant comprehend why anyone wishes to stay in a political institute that has bled the country dry within its 40 odd year lifetime...........time for change. Your insults may have been general but nevertheless aimed at the leave campaigners. My response stands so you too need to take a big suck

Totally agree, but I only seen a comment made about my etiquiette...double standards for sure!

Tell you what, flog me in public and be done with it!!! Anyone want to talk about coupes again??????

That is your view Clintos.

Others disagree.

This forum is not the place to exchange insults.

Whatever............

I'll be man enough to apologise if anything I have said has upset or offended anyone but I don't expect the same in return. Everyone can read the thread from start to finish and see whos at fault..........

Cheers!

That'll be you then

Thankfully I don't believe a word you say

I thought your children were quivering wrecks, too afraid to leave these shores, step outside the house?? But anyway, well done for treating them to a holiday in Spain.

Enjoy the sun

In fairness to Clintos, I've found a few posts on this topic (other thread included) to be unpleasant. Some veiled with slighlty more sophisticated language but that doesn't make them any less inflammatory or condescending. Out voters are apparently too young, simple minded, racist and xenophobic.
We've all got opinions and a vote. No need to be rude to each other.

Is that aimed at the Leave camp?

Errant branches?

I'd settle for a vote out result just to have the last laugh at you personally

Oh, I'm off to Spain without the kids

You with a capital L

PS Blocked another user intent on stirring it up

Feel free to gloat. I'm thick skinned

I won't be on here tomorrow as I'm at the cricket, so I'm going to miss all the fun on here.

Have a good one

Remember kids, you've more in common than differences.

Its the same neoliberal 1% on either side of the "debate" that are laughing at just how easy it is to divide the plebs and make them squabble amongst themselves about things they haven't a hope in hell of understanding.

It might be worth reflecting that there is no right answer. Even if everyone just votes on the basis of their own personal interests, that's a perfectly legitimate way to decide.

The only trouble is, as others have spotted, we have very little predictive power as to what would be to anyone's advantage.

I voted to remain, purely on the basis that to leave would create a great deal of uncertainty about the economy, and the markets don't like uncertainty. I prefer to hold onto the fragile and slow recovery we have been enjoying for the past six years.

Went and cast my vote on the way home and it's the first time I've ever queued to get into the Polling Station!

No need to make up tosh, Clintos - but I worry about what you teach your children. Or did they come by these fears some other way?

Because I'm really racking my brain to think of one instance that's made the news of either shooting on the beach, stabbed on the beach, or shot out of the sky in Spain.

You might also consider letting them learn statistics, and possibly a side order of risk analysis and comparative risk - they've got perhaps fifty thousand times the chance of dying of smoking related diseases than they have of any of the things you listed.

Once upon a time we had a British Empire, the Americans saw to the end of that after WW2 as they bank rolled it. 30 odd years later we sign up for the EU.

We pay Brussles, and the EU central bank £3.3 Billion a month to be in the club. What we could do with £3.3 Billion internally in the UK is anyones guess, but i am sure we could be better off for it.

I have lived my life under the control of the EU and locally by Westminster. I would like to see what the other half would be like in being out of the EU.

But i am a Welshman living in Scotland, though with a Scouse accent which confuses the locals, who think I am Canadian.

I am OUT just for a change for the outlook for the future and hope the UK prospers for doing our own thing. Greenland is a good example when they left the EU under Denmark.

Umm. Norway never joined the EU.

Got my countries confused.

Pete, don't let fact get in the way of absolute rubbish.

Greenland? What the country with a GNP of a shade over $1bn? Versus the UK with a GNP of $2,200bn?

Why don't we try a dictatorship for the second half of our lives? "Just for a change" eh?

Maybe we could get the clangers to form a government? At least we would not go hungry with all that soup!

It's so funny, the ins and outs. You're all as stupid as the politicians you believe.

The only things I've learned from this are


No-one knows what Europe actually does

No-one can tell a direct fact

Both sides take half an argument and round it to their own gain.

Most debate points have 2 sides, not once on the TV, radio or on here have I heard 1 person put a coherent argument together balancing what are believed to be the facts.
It proves one thing over all else, humanity is useless.

To make points:

I was pointed to listen to an item on iPlayer I listened.

The person who pointed it at me quotes reteric from remain, yet same iPlayer cast said the contrary to what was said. Amazing.

There are some very self righteous posts in this thread that make me sick. The weight behind beliefs for both sides is, pathetic. The reason? It's simple NO ONE KNOWS! it's never happened so you can't say what will happen to anything fiscal,migration related or anything else. You're all getting irate over your own understanding of exaggerated fact or fantasy in some cases.

Why can Gibraltar vote but not Falklands?

No idea, but I'm tempted to throw £100 at a bet on Leave at 10/1 now. It would make me feel a tiny bit better if we did leave

Why are you always so angry?

Turning in now.

Leave by 3% I reckon......

It's more interesting than expected!

I'm in shock!!

There appear to be positive surprises on both sides. Could it be that the divide between innies and outies is just more marked than predicted?

It's a done deal now, but the tv programmes are clearly under instruction to avoid losing their audience too early. 'It's too early to say!'

Spare a thought for those poor bookies!!!

Well I guess there's just one real question now then.

Canada or New Zealand?

Example?

I think the point you're trying to make is that you've been asked to make a decision and you can't because you want absolute certainty before you do. That's a cop out. I imagine you're an accountant.

I hope you bought your Euros yesterday

Angry? Frustrated.

Yes, for a European country.

These are the people that voted for cuts. This was a protest vote against those cuts, and now they've just made it worse for themselves. You couldn't make it up. God help us.

England has spoken, even with the scots and the irish trying desperately to scupper the result. Tony Blair, David Cameron, George Osborne, Nicola Sturgeon, Bonnie prince Charlie, pearly kings and queens of east london, John Major, Gordon Brown, Jeremy Corbyn, Tim Farron..........your boys took one hell of a beating .....

Yea ha ha! and now I've just shot myself in the foot.

ps.....thank you Wales

Well I've never felt so bad considering I've just won £1,000... From a quick review of West Midland areas, it looks like the vote was pretty conclusive. I'm looking at my daughter wondering what sort of world we're moving into

Historical day today!

Could be the beginning of the end for the "ever closer EU"

I wonder what Cameron's going to do now! he failed us before this referendum started, is he going to fail us now? hope he Leave's too

How it could effect Gill and I is the holiday home uk based clients. With the pound low they will hold off on improvements. Shame as it was just starting to recover from the last low.
Expat pensioners whose pensions are uk based will/are taking a loss.

The massive changes in the future may just evolve and hopefully it's good for everyone.

With the euro being as it is compared to the pound I may just get that Aston Martin sooner than before.
But Europe may decide to ban the registering of them now.

I wish you all good luck over there and let's hope for peace and a bright future for us and our children.

It's official - turkeys vote for Christmas

No I haven't but the extra cost is a small price to pay for freedom

You totally missed my point intentionally so I will not explain. You also missed the reason 52% of the population and that includes Scotland too why we voted to leave the EU. My work here is done, have a happy life and make the most of being free again. It will be hard for a while, especially when we aren't officially out the EU for another 2 years, but hopefully we can build a Great Britain' again.

Take care All

Well said Joe, we now have to look forward, think positive and make sure the next government we vote in is the best for Britain.

Let's hope the rest of Europe stays together, otherwise the continent that has warred with itself for centuries and started the two biggest wars the world has seen - could see its offspring in uniform again and dying in foreign fields.

Before the 2 years are up the EU will experience more Countries inhabitants also demanding the choice to choose out or in. It really is not just a British issue.

Perhaps because of this the EU will eat a little bit lot of humble pie, admit that their is a limit to how close partners can lie together in bed without starting to hate each other, realign itself to the original idea of an EEC (European Economic Community to those youngsters that didnt exist in 1975) and maybe... just maybe... recreate a workable system.

Their will most likely be another referendum before the 2 years exit schedule is up. The UK's actions have been a positive step forward, for the world and not just Europe, that needed to have happened. And if their is no 2nd referendum then it is going to be no great loss anyway.

....."and can we have the votes from the polish jury"........United Kingdom , nil points

If, by "freedom" you mean locking the doors on bunker UK it's a funny sort of freedom. It's only one step up from those loonies in the US who take over a ranch and declare it independent. Except nearly half the people in the ranch didn't want to be locked in the ranch. I feel my freedom has been taken away.

The majority has spoke so get on with it.

Aye, majority have spoken.........suck it up and get on with it

Morning has broke like the first morning. Blackbird has spoke ......

Will the admins please lock these threads? They are argumentative. Divisive and are achieving nothing. Vote is cast.

Absolutely. But don't tell me I have "freedom"

The irony is that guys who work for me influenced in a real and positive way the regulations in Europe. Now we won't be able to. We'll continue to have to meet them whilst our European competitors influence the regs to be easier for them and harder for us (exactly as the Yanks and the Chinese already do). And that's somehow "regaining control". It would be funny if it wasn't so depressing. I'm fine - none of this will impact me much. We'll have to spend more money on meeting regulations, it will be harder to get the skills we need, and we'll have less influence on things but I'll be busier because I'll be "free" and "in control" in my part of this little island.

Yup - let's bury our head in the sand

we do have freedom, freedom from being ruled and dictated to by the EU fat cats in Brussels, milking our system dry.

Aye, lock the thread now that the remainers have nothing to yap on about. The votes were cast and the majority spoke out and were heard for a change............take a deep breath of freedom and feel refreshed and energised like the other camp 'OUT' voters.

Club Vote.

EU - In or Out
Only one choice allowed (129 total votes)
In - 62 (48%)
Out - 56 (43%)
Undecided - 11 (9%)
Voting on this poll ends: Yesterday at 22:00

Are the leave guys going to form their own little club

I'm sick of hearing this argument. WWII was started because Germany's National Socialists didn't play ball with the Jewish owned Federal Reserve. The EU was put together by Jews after the War. The group that started the war is therefore the same group that runs the EU. It's the New World Order and that is not a good thing for humanity.

Through all of the campaigning over the past few weeks, I didn't see a single argument to remain that wasn't founded on personal greed. This isn't about us now being free. It's all about sending a message: the EU is done. Let's now sit back and watch it fall over.

The fact that the "Out" vote has Donald Trump's support says it all.

Fortunately I "live" in Scotland.

I just want to say, this "The majority has spoke so get on with it" talk, it was a close call, not a land slide as regards percentages. 16 million people woke up this morning to something they didn't want to happen and are now locked in with the other 17 million who wanted it. To not expect sides to scrape is silly.

I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me! - as Rorschach would say.

Aye well, I thought wrong about the outcome. In the end it was the less affluent of England that made their vote count against others. Obviously, rightly or wrongly they saw the government letting them down in various ways.

In the other thread I've tried to take a holistic view & I'm a tad surprised how personal it's become between some. I have my thoughts, but I would never force them on others as it appears on here at times. Whether that is meant or not, it comes over a bit self opinionated & overbearing. Again obviously some on here have different work places & different agendas & that will influence what they believe in. This a friendly forum I have always found, be nice....

I can see more shouty stuff ahead, Scotland is in a position where.....well that's a different topic for a different time eh!....

There were far more reasons than that to cause WW2. WW1 reparations and conditions put on Germany afterwards created a great resentment in the country, especially as the men of their Army who were never actually defeated but had been told to surrender. And what about all the countless other european wars that bankrupted Europe and decimated it's people. Europe has never known such a period of peace and the EU has been a major reason for that.

That's why I voted remain.

The economic arguments are all irrelevant and complete guesswork as ever.
No boom or bust in the economy ever makes a difference to the common people,
Boom times never filter down to me. If I can't make a living anymore.I don't blame it on Immigrants I go out and find another way to make a living . Boom times mean the rich piling more money into offshore accounts and avoiding tax -not spending it to create jobs and share wealth.

This was justification for moving to a National Socialist government, not for going to war. The German people then turned their country around under this regime (Hitler himself winning Man of the Year in Times magazine in 1938!!) and took back (without force) what was rightfully theirs. Judea declared war on him in 1933 and eventually got a pawn (Churchill) into place to push for war.

The fact is, if it wasn't for Jewish bankers pushing for it, there would have been no war. Germany wasn't trying to take over the world or impose itself on other countries. It was freeing itself and its people from oppression. This was not (and still isn't) by the globalists. Any country without a Federal Reserve bank is targeted and it still goes on today. It's sick and it's got to stop.



All of these wars lead back to the Rothschilds and have done for hundreds of years.

MRS - See - burying my head in the sand is completely what I'm not doing
You don't know me, you don't what I do or how I do it or how I voted. The thread is just becoming a place to gloat/moan and be rude to other coupe owners. Move on. You can say what you like in reply because I'm not coming back to this thread.

I don't disagree with that Trappy.

Unfortunately Germany allowed complete psychopaths to takeover and exterminate millions of innocent people and the bankers are still running the show.

It wasn't addressed to anyone specifically but at the idea of shutting a thread. It's the most important thing that's happened to the UK in a very long time - to the point that it will probably end up in the break up of the UK. So shutting the thread would be to pretend there's no elephant in the room. And, being such an important event, it's bound to get heated. It might even be more important than Top Gear.

My views on this aren't so much selfish (as was indicated above) - precisely the opposite. I firmly believe in openness and sharing of wealth and wealth creation. I'll be fine in all circumstances. The whole ideal of "taking control" and keeping others out has surely to be about self-interest if anything is.

I do a lot of regulatory work with China. The more open and inclusive they are, the more successful they are and the more wealth they are creating for the people of China. They still have a long way to go but the direction that is giving them success is clear. The UK has decided to move in the opposite direction. I'm struggling to reconcile that. Time will tell.

Live scenes from the Channel Tunnel

But thats a separate damning subject in itself.

And do you mean harder because people havent pushed themselves or had the upbringing to push themselves and its come back to bite ?. Is this why our internal skills shortage is prevalent because people aren't taught to learn and the way its hidden is by 'bigging up' outside better knowledge coming from other, educationally wiser, Countries ?

Three decades of dumbing down our education system - league tables and being taught to pass, rather than taught to learn - can't continue surely?.

It's an utter disaster.

ok, ok, my bacon roll still cost the same today as yesterday, yes, yes, gravity, at least in my locale, still seems to be switched on, thank god, no one seems to have killed anyone or rioted, I still, as far as I know, have a job and no one I know has lost theirs either, but,

my shoelace came undone this morning and that never happened before we voted out. It's the beginning of the end.

Hopefully not but who is going to change it.
These things were because of British Party politics not because of the EU.

Nope - in the instance of my organisation, the specialist skills (for which there are no academic courses) are in short supply. In order to access those skills, we need ready access to the sources. I've already had concerns from some of my team about the implications of this vote. A points system will be the Brexit answer but anybody who has been exposed to any of those systems knows how slow & cumbersome they are. As the world becomes more complex and we compete on more fronts (China, India etc) we need this else we won't have the job. Why would a skill-reliant business set up in the UK now when across the channel there's easy access to a huge labour pool? I know I wouldn't.

Yes, my point exactly. A separate thread

Oh Glen, Bonnie Prince Charlie is dead. Sorry for being the barer of bad news.....

This is why I eventually, and after not a little soul-searching and maybe why I've held back from posting, voted out.

The idea that our country thinks so little of itself that it has to devolve major decision-making to relatively unknown people in Brussels is the one which gives me most worry - the feel-good factor and their positive psyche is essential in my mind for *anything* to work.

I thought David Cameron's post-result speech was typically statesman-like and generous in defeat - whilst clearly seeing the untenability of his position he has not abandoned ship immediately and is exiting with grace. I'll be inclined to listen to his opinions s an ex Prime Minister far more than any of his predecessors from either party.

Pound has fallen big time. oh well thats another £400 onto my holiday costs. What a bonus!

History is written by the victors...

your costs must be astronomical!

For every £100 you spend you will (today) receive only 118 euros instead of 124, let's say you would have to spend c.£105 to achieve the latter, i.e. an extra £5.....

So £400 [you]more[/you] in holiday costs at that rate you'd be outlaying well over £80,000

None of my business, but just saying...

So if the banks, as is already reported that they are doing, pull thousands of jobs out of London, what is our remedy? The rule-of-thumb is that every direct job is worth 5 or 6 indirect jobs (either supported by the industry or by the salaries of those jobs), that means we're looking at 10,000 jobs already going (2000 X 5). Where one goes, the others will follow.

Where's the upside to this "freedom"?

Why do we think writing our own (presumably different) product/service regulations, whilst still needing comply with EU regs if we want (need) to sell there is "freedom"?

I'd love some real answers to the real problems this decision has created because I'm sure these were thought through before people put an X in the Leave box - I just haven't heard them yet.

£4000 holiday in USA will be £400 more expensive if all costs are £/$ related.

Oil is mostly priced in $ too. Good excuse for a fuel price rise.

Whisper it..... NATO...

Except oil futures will drop as a large economy is being damaged by maybes, not facts (yet).
Scaremongering and making things sound bad now is real damage, before it was measly words.

I love what ifs by the way,

What if the government writes legislation to gain extra financial jobs because it now can.

What if we tax imports of the things we make, meaning we can reignite our own economy

What if the pound weakens and suddenly the UK is cheap labour and manufacturing takes off

It's all still what if.

I didn't want to quote all that but my phone screen ain't that big and I can't see to delete grrr

Of course there will be some drop in oil prices (we'll be the ones that won't get any benefit due to the £'s weakness) but the oil companies take any excuse to put up fuel prices


What if the government writes legislation to gain extra financial jobs because it now can. Except it will be several years before we can write those laws by which time the jobs will be gone.

What if we tax imports of the things we make, meaning we can reignite our own economy. Except that will be met by similar taxes by others. It's at best a nil-sum game.

What if the pound weakens and suddenly the UK is cheap labour and manufacturing takes off. Except we won't have the capital to invest in the machinery we'd need.

You create wealth through open trade (see China) not by tariffs and borders

China isn't a good example at all, you manage trade with tariffs. Wealth is created through proper management.

China is in the poop, we all know this. It's the perfect example of how to out grow your customers through slave labour and under cutting at any cost. Not exactly a model for socio-economic success.

As I said, and you proved my point, there are what ifs for everything - claims can then be put against them to say why they won't work. But as with all claims, it's all what ifs. Shame that there are so many negative people that don't want to see or believe it can work because it needs to, the votes over MRS - time for it to be sucked up and got on with.

China is a very good example of opening up and becoming successful. As I've said before, there's issues there of different sorts but how successful was China before it opened up to the world? I go there 4 or 5 times a year and started a factory there 12 years ago spending 9 months living and working with Chinese people. I now work with the Chinese government (regulators) and businesses. I used to be responsible for several factories in China. If you have better experience, let me know.

What Ifs are fine if they have any basis in reality.

We'll survive but I can't for the life of me understand what people think is going to happen.

As I've said before, I've sucked it up. It's those poor buggers who think this is going to make things better. I guess they'll just need to find somebody else to blame when they need to be looking in the mirror.

China was successful because of its abuse of its population, that to me is not success. Stick a living wage in there and the place would have collapsed.

Yes, I was an accountant for a firm that sourced some 300m goods pa from China for the UK highstreet. Please don't assume Im talking from fiction, I always try and speak from experience. You may have heard of Li and fung.

Which of my what ifs weren't based in reality, all were perfect examples of positive sides of actual events.

I've said today, I think we've got 7-10 years before we settle into something of 'normal'. There's alot of pain coming before anything improves, a whole generation of school leavers who could well suffer for it.

Nail on the head.

Gents - before I write anything about this, have either of you got direct experience with real working Chinese people on an extensive basis - ie living and working with them? Being an accountant for a firm that bought stuff from China probably describes just about every company accountant everywhere.

As for What Ifs, I've answered all 3.

Yes. Look up Li and fung.
I have spoken to more, visited, worked with more Chinese than anyone else. I have seen tha facade factory's established as fronts to slave labour, I've seen the fines that arrive when a customer pays for an inspection on the spot and the facade has fallen. I've also worked with the men who were the first in the UK to mass import product from the far east (Peter Black) so yes, I know alot about China and where it was.

I've seen the better side too, some of the giant live in factories are very good compared to where they've been. But then they aren't as cheap as they were as a result hence there issues now.

My experience on this is between 5 and 13 years old.

As I answered your scenarios with the potential positive. Sometimes good things come from bad.

So what did those Chinese shop floor workers tell you about their lives? Where are those Chinese shop floor workers now? What's the quality of life those people have now versus that which they had 10 years ago and the lives their parents had? What's healthcare provision like now versus 20 years ago?

They've gone through in the space of a decade or two what it took Europe 100-150 years to go through. Were these people living an idyllic life before those nasty westerners took advantage of them?

Now? I said IT WAS BUILT ON, now it's falling down.
I don't know where they are now, some will be dead. Some will have been worked to death. Some will have made millions and be the new rich in China.

Define idillyc.
they probably had a simple spiritual life. One without the trappings and tortures of materiality. What do they have now? The same shit as us, a life dependent on Bix sets, big tvs and money.

I know one thing, you can't answer your own questions.

Many of the factory workers I saw looked unhappy, tired and generally dishevelled. Promises broken would be a description.

As for there feelings, I don't know as they didn't speak English and I don't speak any Chinese dialect and no-one I was with would have translated as they could easily have disappeared.
Maybe the China you see isn't the one I saw,making clothes, bags and shoes. Small children making cheap jewellery. But it's a fact, it was there not 10 years ago.

What do the factory workers tell you? Do they get a living wage? 37 hour week? 5 weeks holiday a year? Or are they still not up to European (oh bugger) standards?

So I'm really interested in the Chinese story. I met their parents, their families their kids, ate in the places they ate and generally tried to get under the skin of the place during the 9 months I lived there as the only westerner in an entirely Chinese team. I've been back a lot since and I'm keen to understand the changes - especially in the quality of life. If you think it's falling down, you've been away too long.

As I've said before, they've still got some way to go - but the roads are stuffed full of better cars than you'll see in the UK and people look very happy and incredibly affluent. There's far less corruption and the government are even bringing in competition to regulators - the place is almost unrecognisable from even 10 years ago. Of course they're not all up to European standards - though, if you take a Eastern Europe, they're much closer than I think you realise. And they see it as all very positive. They see that it was a necessary step to get where they want to be. They've leapfrogged many countries in the space of a couple of decades. Trying to put European values against them is to misunderstand them entirely.

I can't write what I would like to write. I'd have to ban myself.

I have watched a nation rip itself apart, driven by self-seeking demagogues and those who would rather rule a political party than keep the country in a sane place.

Thanks, guys.

^ agreed.

0nly 5 - £6000. Sorry quick of the cuff post relying on my teenagers-data telling me of a peak percentage drop of of around 12% on the dollar not the Euro. An

Villa prices have already gone up since Tuesday I will be paying more for my euros But hey all the figures quoted have been made up anyway. .
I reckon I'll lose about 350 million each week of my holiday..

Nah, you'll gain 350 million each week as it won't be going to those nice people in Brussels.

Yeah - The NHS will be fixed by the time you get back - extra £350m a week and none of those pesky foreigners - simples

I have just spent 3 weeks in the cities of Qingdao, Rizhao, Caofedian and Beijing, hence missing out on the scottish road trip in my Coupe.

This was my second visit to China in the past 8 months. What i see is poor communities with very rich affluent people. Never seen so many high end very expensive cars in one place.

From what i saw, a typical Manager earns in USD circa $900 a month. Property seems not cheap either, but they do build apartment towers dam quick.

Yes with empty oil cans as part of the structure

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35515749

The one thing that glues the members on here together is the Coop. I'm a people person & it's almost like a hobby, not so much these days, but there was a time I would've went to an envelope opening, if the Coop was involved had I owned one.

My point, it really is quite surprising on how people react & post their views on here about the historic event that has just happened. I was, in my 40's a member of a group that went out & made money for charities, a body that was all over Britain & beyond. I say this as I quickly realised that this was also a platform for not only playing/partying, there seemed to be some political wannabes & saw fit to speak their mind.

At least it was live, although at that time I just let things wash over me. It's just too easy to say things & that includes myself, but without overstating I certainly think that some views on here regarding the EU are certainly not prevalent in every area of Britain. As I've said before postcode lottery... You see what you want to see in your wee bit of the UK.

I would never see myself as an expert & perhaps I' ve been lucky & jobwise secure. That's just my neck of the woods, but some on here seem to think & speak for the future of all of the UK.........

Excuse my ignorance,is there such a thing as a Welsh or Scottish passport? Or is it just a British one?

Family in NI are talking about applying for an Irish one.

Is that a possibility?

Hi Joe, how are you? Passport wise it's British, although every where I'm asked what nationality I'm Scottish.....

Yes but he's only going to Saltcoats

It is indeed possible Joe.

Basically anyone who can show that at least I person in their bloodline (going back to Grandparents) was born in Ireland, either side of the border, is able to apply for an Irish passport/citizenship.

Once that has been granted any of that persons descendants is similarly entitled.

There was something on the BBC.com News about it.

I can no longer find the original article,but this touches on the topic

I'm tempted to finally do something about my right to St Kitts-Nevis citizenship.

Simon, you'll need a permanent holiday in England with your mate Farage, as that's the only way your going to get out of being governed by Europe now.

Just saying.

Nearer the coop specialists at least

Wouldn't if be funny if Nige drove a coop.....

He'd fit right-in in this club.

Nige

He'd have been banned - years ago.

No reason...

If the economy takes a serious medium/long term hit, it will be the whole of the UK though. Areas of the UK don't matter. The latest news regarding our credit rating drop won't be selective.

On a different note, please don't leave us, I still want to be able to support Andy Murray. He's half the reason you see the GB flag on the TV these days

A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.

I saw the exact same as that you said on Facebook maybe an hour ago

Aye, it's doing the rounds I think.

A petition for a second referendum fussed about by the 48% minority. I could imagine the brexit campaigners getting a second chance my arse........screw them I say