Channel tunnel traffic & operation stack

I am sure you will have seen the news in recent weeks but after having to suffer weeks of the knock on effects on my local roads I have just about had enough. We need a better solution than using the M20 as a car park and soon. Large sections of roads around the area become grid locked as people search for alternate routes and the big holiday weekend just gone was awful.
Whether it's the French unions or refugee incursions the effect is the same but that's another subject!

Close the tunnel for a few years. Problem solved!

I Agree with Magooagain! just need to close the tunnel and divert ferries to belgium or Holland for now at least!

I like your thinking

Well closing the tunnel is never going to happen and I doubt diverting the ferries would do little more than moving the problem 100 miles up the road.
There has been some suggestion of using MOD land instead which may be possible but I doubt it will be a quick fix.
Operation stack will continue to cost us in terms of lost business and delays to both goods, services and the knock on effect on local roads means the effects radiate out further than people think. I was trying to get to Ashford and got trapped on a country lane after two Hungarian HGV's got stuck trying to avoid the queues, 2 hours wasted and another meeting missed

I really sympathise, cooperman. Sadly, it's a situation that has been ignored or swept under the carpet by anyone not directly affected. Part of the problem is the desperation of the migrants; if you are determined and resourceful enough to make it to Calais from North Africa (for example) with nothing - to avoid being murdered in your home country, you really aren't going to give a damn about a few border security people saying "Hey, you can't come in..."
I'd like to see some figures on the growth in road haulage through the UK ports in the last 15 years...

Yup - you have my full sympathy too. It's a proper mess that, ultimately I guess, is the result of ill thought-out policy in the Middle East.

I don't understand why the French authorities don't just put them all on a bus, drive it onto one of the shuttle's and let us sort it out.

They are clearly our problem, not France's as this is where they are aiming for.

If I was mayor of Calais, I'd have done it months or years ago.

The people coming from Sudan, Nigeria and Somalia are our problem because.......?

I don't know why the French authorities don't just put them on a boat [ a very large one ] , turn left out of the harbour , head west a few hundred miles and then turn south and keep going until you arrive back in warmer climes .

Do P&O do a Calais to Cape Town service ?

Anyone who thinks this country needs another 3,500 here to pimp off the system, needs to think again. I quite like the idea of living in some exotic hotspot , but it won't do me any good camping out on their doorstep, gagging to get in. Even with trying to explain that Mr Cameron has made it very hard to survive in the UK with his austerity measures, I don't think they would listen. . Maybe I should tell the Turkish authorities next month that I fancy staying there indefinitely and see how they take that news.

The are clearly more our problem than France's, otherwise they'd not be trying to break into lorries and trains to get over here.

It must be costing the French a fortune to police or, so why wouldn't they just was their hands of the while mess and bus them over? Far cheaper than a boat to anywhere...m

I believe the problem belongs to the EU, we're just one of the few richest EU countries with the softest policies.
The way to stop economic migrants (if they were just avoiding death then Italy and Greece would be far enough to run, France certainly would be) is to do away with a few more of the benefits. The conservatives have already started, it's only a few extra changes and the UK won't be so attractive.

My wife spent the first 15 years of her life as a refugee. 8 years in an Iraqi prison camp and 7 years in an Iranian refugee camp, I won't bore you with the details of what life is like in those camps and how many members of her family didn't make it through the trauma.

Her life started at age 15 in Sweden, she now speaks 6 languages, has a degree in medical engineering and works bloody hard.

These refugees aren't bad people, please don't think the desperation they are showing to get to the UK is get on a benefits system. They might just want a chance at a life worth living.

or just get the hell out of Europe :), get Clarkson elected as PM, Nigel Farage as his deputy, then we can do what we like without European intervention [ then the ports would really be busy !! ]

Sorry to hear of your wife's troubles Jimbo and glad to see she's having a good life now.

However, the vast majority of the refugees haven't faced that and like Muzzie says the idea of the European Union is that they take refuge in the first country they come to. they choose to travel through Europe to get here because of the free living they believe we'll give them - and it has to stop, we can't afford to lose either the money or the jobs - this issue should be addressed by all of the EU not just France and England

I wish it was only 3500 people . When the 3500 make it across there will be another 3500 filling the space in the jungle . Its not our problem its France who should be sorting this out and handing them back to Italy ,Greece or turkey .

Cameron's sorted it all out, we're sending some sniffer dogs to France and some more fencing...unbelievable !

Never thought I would be agreeing with Eamon Holmes but putting up electric fences around the euro tunnel facility may be a solution!

Let's not forget that it's not just the unfortunate migrants causing these problems, but also striking seamen from a militant union blocking the roads leading to the ferry terminals in Calais.

Add some French farmers stopping foreign trucks they take a dislike to and/or barricading roads and a jolly good time is had by all.

Very true about the local farmers and dock workers, unions etc, we were stuck behind roadblockssome years back trying to get home and the French police did bugger all to break it up or move them on. They seem equally impotent now!

France never had thatcher and hence their unions still pull.some serious weight.

jimbo, I have no issue with immigration / emmigration it's natural and the UK would be missing many doctors yet have too many trades folk (they've all gone to Australia) which is how it should work. The issue is the floods of ill informed people that think the place is paved with gold.
Next time you're in the UK come to Bradford, you'll see what I mean.

Can't get all this "soft Touch" Britain nonsense.

The reason so many of them risk their lives to get to Britain is because they already speak ENGLISH. Most of the problem is our imperialistic past not the benefits system. We travelled the world and forced English upon the natives. When you are next on Holiday and get by perfectly without ever uttering a word of the language of your destination, you may like to realise just what that the negative aspect of that benefit may be.

So that's why they want to come to the UK - English, not benefits. The USA is having exactly the same issues, with south American migrants, at their borders.

It has also been shown that economically many of the EU migrants would actually be better off in say France or Germany, but if you don't speak the lingo you won't easily get a LEGAL job.

Some of what you said is left wing spin . They risk their lives because they put themselves in danger . France is a beautiful country . You do know alot of these people are from Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia which the west has not interference in . How do you explain that . Or that their families have put up alot of money to get them to Calais . Why is it mainly single young men in their early twenties ?

English is the most commonly taught second language so is a logical choice for them.

European powers have interfered (as you put it) in the countries you mentioned.

Britain in Sudan in the 19th and 20th centuries ,although governed by Egypt which was at that time a British protectorate. became independent in 1956.

Italy in Eritrea until they were removed by the British in 1941, then annexed by Ethiopia prior to gaining independence in the late 20th centuary.

Italy, France and Britain in different regions of Somalia until late 20th century independence.

Recently say in the last couple of generations .Running away from your country is not to solve its problems and if your a legitimate refugee you cant pick and choose what country you would like to live in .Its has to be the first safest country from your homeland Whats the point in foreign aid if they want to come here . Sky has been covering this much better than the BBC . i was watching tonight when they interviewed a women called Samara from Syria . She is seven months pregnant and will not stop untill she makes it to England . She says all she wants to do is work . How thats going to work then . Has she a job ,money ,housing and education . Its good she says she wants a job but in reality its not going to happen .

The EU needs to enforce the basis of claiming asylum within its borders with a claim being lodged in the first county that is arrived in or the claim not being legal. Illegals should be returned whilst legal claimants should be distributed amoungst all the EU member states including the UK with a limit on movement within it for a set period until their ability to work and support themselves is proven.
There needs to be a system that is seen to be fair or this free for all assault on the eurotunnel facility will continue. Speaking English should not be a reason to head to the UK as it is widely spoken within the EU as already pointed out.

Oh FFS.

The view on here that carries the most weight is Jimbo's. Someone actually knowledgeable about refugees and their lives. The problem for many comfortable little Englanders is their total inability to understand what it means to live in the conditions that most people who flee their countries have to endure.
If you could imagine what it was like to genuinely fear for your life and safety every day, you might appreciate why they would risk their lives to find any alternative. Of course some of them will believe that the UK is the best option, but if you look at the figures EU-wide for the number of refugees accepted, we aren't exactly at the top of the list. If we were dealing with the same scale of issue as Italy, I think we might have a better idea of how few people make it to Calais.

Robcoupe20VT - To accuse Bob of Left wing spin then say Sky offers better coverage seems to mean "coverage that better reflects my right-wing views". Try Al-Jazeera's coverage if you want another, often more balanced view.

Sky is neither left or right wing . Are you serious about Al-jazeera offering a more balanced view ? I get the point that they are fleeing civil war and certain death but the first safe country they reach should be the one they claim asylum . Jimbos has experienced a positive side of it but what about the negative side . More stain on housing ,nhs ,some will commit crime and eventually these people would like their families to be brought over . Have a look at wiki and see how many civil wars in the last 15 years . On the bbc this morning if a couple with a child claim asylum they get £135 per week plus a place to stay . I know somebody who lived in his car with his dogs for 6 months before the council could house him .He was born in the uk and so were his parents .

Sky is neither left nor rightwing?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

That's a good one, are you here all week???

I'm very serious about Al-Jazeera, Robcoupe20VT; do you often actually watch it? What you may find difficult is that the coverage is not pro-British or US, but it is generally remarkable in the quality and breadth of its programmes.

I think oxfordsteve you are getting sky news confused with Fox news .Do you watch alot of sky news then .

No i will give al-J a miss .

"Al Jazeera has been criticized for being state media owned by the government of Qatar.[12][13][14][15][16][17] Al Jazeera has been accused of being pro-Wahabi as well as being pro-political Islam (Including the Muslim Brotherhood), and having a strong anti-Iranian and anti-Shia bias. Compared to all the other networks, Al Jazeera seldom broadcast extremist Salafi's attacks on the cultural heritage in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, which can be attributed to the Salafi beliefs of its owners and executives. The network also downplays atrocities committed by the extremist groups, and instead highlights actions taken by the Western governments. It also never broadcasts anything even remotely critical of Qatar's ruling family, including human right violations or the abuse of immigrant workers in Qatar. Al Jazeera can be recognized as an apparatus of the Qatari elites to exert influence over the region via propagation of political Islam combined with Salafism, hence being accused of supporting terrorism. In 2010, United States Department of State internal communications, released by WikiLeaks as part of the 2010 diplomatic cables leak, claim that the Qatar government manipulates Al Jazeera coverage to suit political interests.[18][19][20][21][22][23]

Al Jazeera's Shia Beirut correspondent Ali Hashem resigned from Al Jazeera after leaked e-mails shows his discontent over the outlet's "unprofessional" and biased coverage of the Syrian civil war in light of the Bahraini uprising, which was not given the prominence of the Syrian conflict on the network,[24][25] one side of the conflict which was partly funded by the state of Qatar, who also fund Al Jazeera.

Al Jazeera's long-time Berlin correspondent Aktham Suliman left in late 2012 "It wasn't just because the broadcaster seemed less interested in reports from Europe. Rather, Suliman had the feeling that he was no longer being allowed to work as an independent journalist. "Before the beginning of the Arab Spring, we were a voice for change," he says, "a platform for critics and political activists throughout the region. Now, Al-Jazeera has become a propaganda broadcaster." "Al-Jazeera takes a clear position in every country from which it reports -- not based on journalistic priorities, but rather on the interests of the Foreign Ministry of Qatar," he says. "In order to maintain my integrity as a reporter, I had to quit.""[2] [26] He writes, "The news channel Al Jazeera was committed to the truth. Now it is bent. It's about politics, not journalism. For the reporter that means: time to go. [...] The decline 2004-2011 was insidious, subliminal and very slow, but with a disastrous end."[27]

Walid Phares indicated that the Qatar-owned Al Jazeera television network became the “primary ideological and communication network” for the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists during the Arab Spring in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya , Yemen, and Syria in 2011.[28] He noted that after democratic forces had initiated the rebellions, Al Jazeera played a “tremendous role”[28] in supporting the Islamic forces that then seized the revolutions.

Al Jazeera has suffered the exodus of numerous prominent staff members. Reporters and anchors, particularly in cities like London, Paris, Moscow, Beirut and Cairo have left Al-Jazeera, despite what are seen as luxurious working conditions in centrally located offices. And despite the fact that the network is investing an estimated $500 million (€375 million) in the US, so as to reach even more viewers on the world's largest television market—one in which its biggest competitor, CNN, is at home.[2][29][30] Among the largest walk-offs, was that of 22 members of Al Jazeera's Egyptian bureau. The group announced their resignation on July 8, 2013, citing biased coverage of the ongoing Egyptian power redistribution in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood.[31][32][33][34][35][36]"

The problem with news is that it's nigh impossible to get a balanced view from one source alone. Given any connections with the government at the time the propaganda machine whirrs on relentlessly, and as Jim says we may not like what we hear. We are brought up to protect and support one's own country to the hilt and carefully directed news effluent can do wonders in support of this.

A few years back UK was the recipient of news concerning South Ossetia and Georgia. The Russian parent of a pupil assured me that her father, living in a remote area which received both Georgian and Russian broadcasts, was hearing two completely different stories which in turn were at odds with the UK media "facts"! I lived in Nicaragua in the late 70's during the approach of the downfall of the US-backed dictator at the hands of the Sandinistas and still have several copies of "La Prensa" from those moments which I can assure you were not in agreement with the government's paper "Las Novedades".

So it's really hard in my opinion to get a good overview on the present Chunnel issue - all we do know is that folk are making considerable effort to extract themselves from their own country, which if things were right, they wouldn't do in such numbers.

I don't think there is a b&w solution - just as in a workplace you get hard workers and slackers plus a few in between, tow-the-liners and rebels, you will never tidy up every loose end. The point being a country will always let someone through who will "scrounge" but maybe many more who won't.

Personal experience of immigration and refugee-ism I would have thought is the most accurate but one would need to collect many such instances to even begin to see a pattern.

From my own experience, being even temporarily without a country to be allowed in, is not a nice state of mind so my heart goes out to all those so desperate out there. What to do with so many wanting to enter the UK is what we elect governments for and (while we are still in the EU) it seems to be perplexing the majority of each head of its states.

I didn't say it was positive? This was down to the sheer grit and determination of her farther to carry his family through hell for 15 years to lead them to country where they could start a normal life. Sweden happened to be the country that became home, but it could well have been the UK.
Her personal determination to make something of her life should be a shining example of what you can do given the opportunity.

We have a single photo in our photo album of my wife's childhood in an Iranian refugee camp, just one compared to the hundreds I have (we are both the same age), it is a picture of her sat on the floor of the 3m x 3m room that was home to her entire family. On the wall are two pictures which have been torn out of a magazine, one is of Charlie Chaplin, the other looks like an old Malbro advert with a cowboy smoking a cigarette, not much but it brightened up their home. The one mattress the whole family slept on is up against the other wall to clear the floor space, they are all sat peeling vegetables.
Imagine only having one reminder of a f**ked up childhood to look back on. Isn't it just as unfair that they were driven from their homes as it is they aren't allowed a new home. Same goes for these poor people crossing Europe looking for a new home.

I'm just trying to give you a view from the other, less fortunate side of life.

What many of my fellow little islanders don't seem to accept is that Britain is and has been for thousands of years an Island of immigrants. Even the original ancient Celtics Britons are said to be of Greek decent. All of us most certainly have a family tree that includes many elements of this diverse background.

I find it intriguing that many of my countrymen often express their wish to have the freedom to live anywhere they choose, but find it so abhorrent that others should also wish to make that choice for their lives.

These migration problems have been escalating for some time but the world has stood by whilst radical ethnic and religious cleansing policies have taken hold. As said previously the problems are GLOBAL and the people wanting opportunity are only HUMAN.

Very true Jim, at least one television news tv station actually shows footage of whats happening in the world. Watching BBC news in the morning is like suffering a deja vu moment every half an hour with the same news regurgitated every half hour, sky not much better with its dolly girl line up.Quite into Al-Jazeera now, bet they don't give Cilla 15 mins airtime tonight at 6pm like the BBC will !!

point taken and a good point too. Think most are worried about numbers though, I meet many who express a wish to get out of this country, but will probably never be brave enough to go. If the country wasn't in such austerity measures , with no shortage of hospital beds, homes, docs appts, school places etc etc then maybe we would be more welcoming.Old Bob down the road moving to France to retire isn't the same as 3,000 africans wanting to join our ranks, with thousands more to follow.

FFS Jim, thanks for your point of view but to dismiss a view that we need a managed asylum system / process that we can support and fund on an EU wide basis seems obvious to me. I don't doubt the migrants, refugees, call them what you wish have all have stories that would makes us shiver at the thought of what they have endured. Should we simply lay on a bus service?

Were going around in circles ...I never said you said it was positive i am expressing the story you told us about your wife was positve in my view . Anyway its not unique for immigrants or immigrant children to have shitty lives . It happens in this country everday and all around the world .

Do a search and you will find out its bias . Run by the goverment of Qatar . So if you like your news from a country that has a bad reputation for human right ,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Qatar

Cooperman - I'm very sorry, my ffs was not aimed at you at all! It was after writing a long reply which then vanished into the ether. Apologies.

Robcoupe20VT, my wife runs a publishing company and in the last 2 years we have published two books about the media in the Middle East with a third due in a few weeks, written by academics and journalists from the region. One of my jobs is to proof read them, so I'll see your Wikipedia and other unattributed sources on Al-Jazeera and raise you a bit of personal insight.
I'm not claiming that Al-Jazeera is unbiased, merely that it provides a refreshing look at the world from a non "western" perspective. If you look at a lot of the accusations leveled at it, you'll find that many are politically motivated.
As Edinburgh eloquently points out, the truth is an elusive creature, but seeing alternative viewpoints can sometimes help you avoid spouting shite produced by Murdoch's minions. Only sometimes though.

Jim Clennell i suggest you log on to Wiki and change what has been written about Al Jazzera if you dont agree with it .I think you will find Murdoch does not have any say in what sky news produces . His company last time i heard had a 37% share in SKY .I get my news from alot of sources BBC,LBC 97.3,SKY, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS and MSNBC .I can take or leave whats on most of these channels have to offer .I could never watch a channel owned by a government with its own agenda that commits so many human rights abuse's .No thank you

Well, I could try and change all the wrong stuff on the Internet, but then again, I have a few other things I've promised MrsC I'll do, so perhaps I'll just carry on not believing everything because it happens to suit my world view.
As ever, this is a pointless discussion; I have tremendous sympathy for the people of Kent, but I'm not naive enough to believe that the whole thing is the fault of the refugees. The UK, the EU and the people killing each other, driving thousands of their fellow countrymen to flee in terror in search of any kind of safe life all share the blame. I just don't want to make it worse by stigmatizing those in the most need. Unlike certain broadcasters and their disciples.

These threads always fall apart.
No one can accept another's view point in a subjective Manor. It always has to be aggressive, no wonder the world is in so much shit.

No Jim Clennell you dont seem to understand . I posted a link to Wiki which anyone can change .It would be physically impossible for you to change the whole internet .You know it and everybody knows it that the refugees/economic migrants/asylum seekers are safe in Calais . They dont have to worry about any wars or live under the fear of being kidnapped .

Yet again I'm reminded why I rarely don't post much on these type of threads, apart from the one way of thinking from the usual suspects, some seem to take things so personally & as pointed out go into aggressive mode.

I remember a time down the pub before all this gadget electrical 'puter malarkey, expressing our thoughts on current affairs face to face. No hiding place back then.

In an attempt to get this thread back on track and inject a little (un-PC) humour...

The Frenchies seem to be unable (or unwilling) to prevent the immigrants entering their country and I suspect they wouldn't be overly bothered if they all managed to get to the UK

So - lets do the same and solve TWO problems in one go, with the following sequence of events:-

1) Legislate for Scotland to have really attractive housing and welfare benefits for asylum seekers
2) Give Scotland the independence that Nicola Sturgeon is convinced they all want (despite the referendum....)
3) Put all the immigrants on a train at Calais but keep going after Folkestone - all the way to Glasgow / Edinburgh / insert your own Scottish city / town / hamlet

The biggest UK expense will be rebuilding Hadrian's wall to keep them all in, but there will be plenty of cheap labour on the Scottish side....

They wouldn't want to come here because of the weather, it's been crap lately, even worse than usual.....

Calais is a bleak hole in the winter months . I have seen how these people are having to live. Not pleasant in any way.

Calais is a bleak hole in the winter months . I have seen how these people are having to live. Not pleasant in any way. [/quote]

Joe, I'm talking about summer weather. Never seen so much black clouds at this time of the year, & the rain just never stops at the moment. Two days after the longest day we had our house lights on at 8pm, normally still quite light at midnight. Yes I know it's a different story about these sad desperate people.

Good old News Thump.

That's not even satire, it's total garbage.

The idea of living in a shanty town of tents, makeshift shelters and no sanitation can't sit well with anyone, basic shelter, etc was something that the Sangatte camp provided but it became a focal point both politically and physically for all that was wrong with french provincial thinking at that time.
Now they seem happy to turn a blind eye but the local population must be sick to the teeth of the place becoming one big toilet.
One thing is certain in that they will keep coming, another 1800 were rescued from boats off the Italian cost yesterday so in a couple of weeks time they will further swell the numbers at Calais.
God knows what the solution may look like but I doubt riot police and pepper spray can be accepted as the norm!

I had to browse Stormfront for 20 mins after reading that, just to restore my political balance for the day.

I think you find they have sanitation ,running water ,doctors come to the camp ,charity organization deliver food ,electricity and even wifi as reported by the BBC yesterday . It most likely better conditions than their home .

From what I have read they have pretty much built some basic latrines (holes in the ground) one or two standpipes and get a meal a day from a charity organisation, not read about power or wifi which seems far from likely, volunteer doctors visit and provide basic health checks.
Hardly a home from home but likely safer than what they left behind.

They are camped on the dune rough ground between broom and gorse bushes. Don't look nice on a cold rainy December evening.

Well put things in context closer to home nearly 8000 people sleep rough in london every night 2014/2015 . So BBC are making up stories ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u5QT5D2yqE

Interesting interview with an Ethiopian who has made it to UK on ITV news tonight. He stated that British benefits are spoken about among the migrants, and that is why many of them want to come here. Obviously right wing propaganda, commissioned by the Daily Mail to whip a storm of I told you so... unless of course it is actually true and he wasn't a plant?

if I strayed onto a railway where there are fences up, I would be fined thousands for delaying passenger services. Funny how in France you can trespass and they return you to trespass again a night later !!
Time for Cameron to grow a pair and sort this mess out. That or build some gun towers and shoot on sight [ don't think Calais or any other ports would be a problem for long ].

And what exactly do you want Cameron to do about it??

I think he said gun towers and snipers....

So it seems Manston airport is now going to become a lorry park! It may take some of the pressure of the M20 but it's a trek away from the tunnel facility and local roads and villages will suffer but maybe it will be better than what we have now.
As for what we do about the Calais issues the extra security may need further increases in numbers and better security fences as an interim measure, but the migrants won't give up that seems certain.

Another attempt at un PC humour...You lot built it with the Frenchies so you lot sort it out down there.....

Whilst I'm far too cynical to believe everything I read, this article by Robin Lustig seems to put forward some information that is quite relevant and useful:

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/7909630

The Huffpost is the sister of the online version of the Guardian . The standard of the journalism is poor . In the Usa most people that post are democrats and left leaning . In the UK most of the people that post are right wing much to the dismay of the HP. At one time is was heavily censored and alot of right wing comments deleted . I think they have given up . Medhi Hasan was an editor and got so much flak he had to leave in the end .

In terms of the implications for Kent and the wider point about refugees, I think the content of the article is more relevant.

Ah that'll be like the 2 Iranians who jumped off the back of a HGV at our place today straight from Calais. Sliced open the roof, pissed and crapped all over the stock too for good measure.
They spoke no word of English but are confident of staying here and asked if we knew where their house would be via google translator to Persian.

These guys (according to the police) will be given refugee status and every benefit they can get even though they apparently haven't seen any fighting outside of their own homes! They both had on brand-name clothes that i'd struggle to afford, both single males about 21/22 years of age.......i was shocked at how confident and relaxed they were but the police said they know exactly what to do and say to stay here scrounging our tax money

Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favour of helping people in distress, but these 2 couldn't have been further from it