Do we still discuss serious stuff here?

A few weeks back I saw this film - The Railway Man. It had a bit of an effect on me so I bought the book, read that and have now ordered "The Forgotten highlander"

In the introduction to Alistair Urquhart's book he makes reference to Japanese Unit 731. All this led me to do research some into the conduct of the Japanese during and after WW2. Initially I was quite disgusted at the Japanese response with regard their actions towards the POWS. However my disgust became even stronger once I discovered more on the Unit 731. Whilst searching I found this ZDF Documentary WARNING: IT IS MOST DISTURBING AND NSFW

The revelations in this documentary are not limited to Unit 731. It includes some information on German death camps and then goes much, much further. The roles of many more nations in such dubious practices are opened up and there seems little sound morality to defend many of these nations actions. Oh yes of course someone does try to defend such actions by suggesting it all benefits the greater good.

So, my question is......

Wikileaks, an organisation with the power to expose such things today, rather than in 50 years time. Good thing or bad thing?

Well Wikileaks is more politically focussed. It's not leaking the truth about Syria so I suppose it wouldn't have been able to leak things in WW2.
There are other issues about leaking documents about one countries plans to prevent another from doing something or what it expects it's doing. Can you imagine the A bomb or D-Day landings leak? That would have been hell. Also to chose what to leak and what not to leak is surely against the principles of the site and therefore a moral dilemma in itself.

In my opinion Wikileaks has it's place, but it's not giving away national secrets in a time of war when whole countries are at risk. It's good for scandals though and does have it's place which I believe is to remove the feeling of invulnerability that certain heads of state and business get when they reach a level of power and wealth.

I think the idea behind Wikileaks is sound but without doing any research WikiLeaks comes across as a bit one-sided, i.e. primarily leaking secrets of 'The West'.
Assange's desire to seek asylum in Ecuador struck me as a bit odd - they're not exactly known for freedom of speech.

In the documentary there was the fact that the Japanese had undertaken live vivisections on captured American Air Force pilots. This information was kept from the American public so they could ease the path of captured scientists into the USA.

I suspect we all know the USA had "overlooked" certain German scientists previously but almost all involved in vivisection were either imprisoned or hung. I seems appalling that the USA, self proclaimed bastion of righteousness, could so willingly deceive it's populous into giving free passage to some of the most evil people to have existed.

I am not sure that History is such a great place to look for evidence that proves keeping secrets is beneficial other than when at war. Most of our 19th & 20th century history came back to bite us on the arse big time. We actually prepared the Japs as a fighting nation, encouraging them to fight the evil communists in China and Russia. The Japanese then used the raw materials from their captured lands to build an Army to eradicate all the western presence in Asia. Many, many lives were lost but years on you would have to say that they mostly achieved their goal, though they are perhaps rather upset that China has become the powerhouse of the region.

For me a huge downside of Wikileaks is that it will drive things further underground. Then again is that so bad?

Wikileaks' biggest win could be that it might just wake people up to seeing that despite what they may think, the world is a much darker place. We currently wander around our little nation thinking that the biggest issues we face are Scotland leaving the UK, immigration, EU membership and Royals antipodean adventure. The fact we, and others, are still hurtling into an ever increasing debt crisis, with no means of slowing it down or reversing the trend, seems not to register....

Indeed.

What if I were to assume that Wikileaks isn't as open as it appears. Imagine if it were, say, being controlled to deliberately spread information, perhaps by a spy network from another nation / interest?

I'd not even gone into it as a propaganda machine! It's scary what a viral Web item can produce, just look at the recent riots and that was a closed event. Think of what insightment globally could be caused!!!

Wikileaks is dangerous.

Blimey Bob, take a chill pill. Darkness and evil will always be there if you want to look for it. Despite the doom and gloom we live in a very civilised country were by and large the law works and the police are not too corrupt. Crime is on the decrease as life expectancy is on the increase.

We can hope to learn lessons from the past, but there will always be those motivated by other things and will do anything to anyone to get their way.

For me the health of my family is and always will be my utmost priority. They are healthy and I am happy regardless of the countless evil/disgusting things currently going on in the world. A sense of perspective is always helpful.

I don't usually get involved in discussions like this, but I pretty much agree with bockers here.

John, I agree that some degree of perspective may be required. It may also be that burying heads in sand and remaining naïve to what is going may indeed be the best strategy.

Well you have to decide if you can actually do anything about such things. If you decide you can't then you have to decide wether to remain stressed about it our find another cause, or just ignore it and stick to local issues.

After watching "The Corporation" I got really dosed about the thought that big business was it to rule the world, and in reality probably now does. But what can you do about it when faced with general apathy of the public to fight back. A prime example is Starbucks, they pay little or no tax in the UK and when this was announced in the media there was a public outcry and press derision. The queue at my works Starbucks was as long as ever, it made little or no difference to Starbucks. Indeed now they are being courted by the UK government to relocate their European headquarters here.

I am old enough to remember the poll tax protests, would that happen today, I doubt it.

As for historical injustices I just have to let them go and just pay my respect and remembrance to those who suffered. I can do no more.

Exactly.

It's all very well acknowledging the world's ills, but what can I do to alter the national debt or stop African children killing other African children other than to try and raise awareness?

I must admit though, a quick read of this Unit 731 is absolutely sickening.

I to have chosen to step back a bit from discussions such as this, but here we have a classic case nowadays of too much information open to a vast amount people compared to bygone times. Knowledge is a good thing I think we can all agree on that, but there are times when information such as this, Joe public can do absolutely nothing about it, as pointed out by others, there is no point dwelling on such dark matters.

To answer the question, Wikileaks good or bad, well.. trying not to sound too evasive, I come from a time when, if you needed certain information of a sensitive nature or secretive, you had to go digging, which took time. Nowadays the computer is your friend & more search engines you can shake a stick at.

Slightly off topic. There is such a thing as information overload & certain people can get caught up in all sorts of things. Not suggesting anyone on here, but It's not rare for certain individuals, usually young males, to get carried away about what they've read on certain sights on WWW.

I accept I'm all over the place to a certain extent, but my point in this case is far too much information can have down sides. On a last note, probably looking through tinted glasses. Compared to my day, quite a lot of people I come across are not that happy with their lot, be they poor wealthy or other......Just my observations.

It's nice to have a discussion that hasn't dissolved into race, immigration or politics - top subject Bob and some good comments made.

Another inherent danger is information out of context. Leaking parts of documents could cause serious issues if the content is not within the context with which it would be used.

Bang on.

Unit 731 is a chilling tale and to think the US concealed it and used the data gathered on their own men is sickening. As for Wikileaks my view is that having the means to expose the truth gives some balance in how and who retains or manages critical info / knowledge which is necessary in my opinion.

Alternatively a version of the "truth". Which can range from totally factual to total bollocks but must be true because some person with absoloutely no personal agenda has posted it.

In it's heyday this Forum had countless "factual" stories posted which Andrew routinely discredited with Snopes. But as they'd been taken off the internet or received in an email they were taken at face value.

And I think websites like Snopes and Wikileaks give (relatively intelligent) people the knowledge that stories can be challenged, researched and argued against.

The problem is Ali, the majority won't rsearch or challenge, they accept things at face value. You just have to see the vitriol posted on FB threads even after the original post has been debunked.

In business you often get taught “Circles of influence” I fully understand how this can be a good process to keep personal stress levels, at work, under control. That said it also seems a bit like a kinder way of saying “Know your place”

People in history have got stressed about things they couldn't change - Their answer - get into a position to be able to affect change.



People today do seem to be somewhat less interested in being effective in affecting change.



The point I was making earlier was that we don't know what the true agenda of Wikileaks is. We assume they exist to enable people to blow the whistle. Great, but how many documents from non-english speaking - non wester countries have surfaced there, far fewer than you would expect of somewhere designed to be Global!

Wikileaks appears to have become a USA - bashing stick.




There is so much information out there today. Problem is that most of us are guilty of cherry picking what we need to try and justify our position. This isn't a bad thing if we are prepared to listen to alternative viewpoints. Problem is that most of us aren't.

Very true, hence 'relatively intelligent'.

There will always be those who take what they read/hear at face value. Ergo, such things exist as tabloid newspapers, the audience of Jeremy Kyle, the EDL and countless other uninformed or ignorant groups/people who will argue in the face of reason or logic.

I don't know whether or not Wikileaks is a good thing. I've never spent a single second on the site and my only information on them comes from the media (who's ignorant now? ).

The things is, most people don't have a spare 20 minutes to research the credibility of every story or claim they read or hear. But most intelligent people will choose their source of media carefully and trust it to be well researched and accurate.

What is the truth anyway? Ask two people involved in a crime or misdemeanour's and you will get two different stories. The truth is somewhere between usually. Typically historical events are written by the winners or invaders.

The internet has spread so many different "truths" to make the real one better hidden than they had ever been before. It is in danger of becoming useless. This is also true of email, you get so many spam and advert messages that I often can't be bothered to trawl through the detritus to find the real messages.

Just read the forgotten highlander. Why the heck am I doing this to myself?

ANYONE who feels proud to be British really should read this book. This fellows accounts of the British expats he met, and how they behaved, and then on how we treated our returning POWs will put any patriotism to the test....

Thing is Bob, every so often we come across a selfless, heroic or compassionate person that reaffirms the good side of humanity. The let-down is the flip-side when particularly group-led atrocities leave one incredulous and horrified at their actions. I knew nothing about Unit 731 and it's sickening to think that things probably don't change much. When I began to mention it to Mrs Ed she quickly said she didn't feel like hearing the rest.....

I'm not a religious person particularly, neither do I go to church, although early schooling in London was very much immersed in those surroundings, but I can see why people may lean toward this type of group activity as within itself it tends to be fairly peaceable and tries to veer away from "evil".

Put religions face-to-face however and all hell breaks loose.

Put countries face-to-face.....

Still, that's what we're brought up to do, form groups, join teams, support your national side, it's not surprising it gets out of hand.

To answer your original question, yes let's have the information which we will have to come down on either in favour of or against its authenticity. People have the option to read it or ignore it.

One snag with having all the information: it's very rare that you have either *all* the information or indeed any confirmation that the information you do have is correct and not made up for someone's hidden agenda...

Consider (assuming you're a heterosexual male) if someone came up to you, started running his hands over your body, put his arms around you, ran a hand into your crotch... you might be a bit surprised until I tell you the hidden information: he has a tape measure in his hand and he's fitting you for a new suit.

Some one clever said "History is written by the Victors"...

Indeed why. May i suggest "Wilt" by Tom Sharpe, it may raise the mood somewhat!

Is he good looking?

Aye the truth is out there in all shapes & forms as people pointing out how it can be interpreted.

My for instance about information was the moon landing in'69. I was a young teenager at the time & the whole world looked on, especially the likes of Russia. Any hint of a hoax would have been sniffed out at an instance. Obviously I was not on the moon, but I witnessed the drama at the time. A very hard act to pull off for "pretendy" purposes.

Now the flip side, there is information out there that says it was all a scam. Some even alive at the time rubbish the moon landing. I can understand to a point while people not around at the time find it hard to believe. Kind of off topic, but the way you way up your options when trying to discover real facts can & indeed lead to differences of opinion & arguments.

But better imo to have the information and discuss it than have it withheld.

"A little knowledge is dangerous", but then total ignorance (apathy) is even more hazardous?
Not individually necessarily, but for society as a whole?
So some checks and balances, in whatever form they may arise, are overall perhaps a good thing?

I see these IDIOTS that get thrust upon us via our TV sets. The likes of that Joey Essex for example, and wonder how someone so, seemingly, stupid can be so popular. But I guess the guys charm is that he is so naïve. Not for him the cares of the world. Bitterness, anger and despair of humanity are all things he has yet to look forward to.

You know I can actually see some benefit of living inside a bubble, ignorant of almost all the nastiness that goes on outside it

John, thanks for the tip.... I'll try and seek out something more joyous / happy to raise my spirits. Knowing my look I'll find another happy story with yet more dark undertones though!

I live in a bubble like that..

I never watch the news, never have done, I honestly can't recall watching the news all the way through, I never read a newspaper, I rarely pay attention to the news on the radio, I occasionally will view the BBC news website at lunchtime, but mostly in the entertainment and technology areas. I only ever read fiction books and normally horror or zombie books. I can't tell you anything about current affairs. I don't vote, I don't follow any sport (I *watch* F1), I don't read news posts on here, I don't watch current TV fads!

I like it.. Surrounded by all of the worlds evil, but knowing nothing of any of them