Fiat Coupe Club UK

multiair mapping

Posted By: samsite999

multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 10:19

Morning all, I just wanted to get some advice. Alfa mito cloverleaf, with multiair.

It seems very hard to find some one who is willing, and knowledgeable to map this car for less than £400 with a good track record.
People seem to do one of two things, run away or quite numbers so not to deal with it.
Posted By: Jim_Clennell

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 10:42

Have you tried Flea? He might at least be able to explain why people are reluctant...
Posted By: samsite999

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 10:55

I have, he has given me a price of £495 or £895 if I wanted the abarth done at the same time. I respect his work but thats a lot of money
Posted By: DaveG

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 11:32

Yes indeed, I don't think Flea needs to bother with us impoverished owners of Italian cars any more frown
Posted By: coupedummy

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 16:41

Nice day rate, flea buys the curry next time we're out!
Posted By: Jim_Clennell

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 17:24

I guess there must be a reason why the price is so high/tuners don't want to work with these models. Has anyone given one?
Posted By: barnacle

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 18:51

One reason might be that the next(?) round of emissions regs require that the map isn't buggered around with, or so I understand.
Posted By: DaveG

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 18:59

But any new emissions reg's will normally only apply for cars produced after the time at which the reg's are introduced and not applied retrospectively, so a 2010 MultiAir engine should only need to meet the emissions specified at the time?

Have you tried MonzaSport?
Posted By: ScouseCoupe

Re: multiair mapping - 16/03/2016 21:33

Originally Posted By: Jim_Clennell
I guess there must be a reason why the price is so high/tuners don't want to work with these models. Has anyone given one?


Try Gus at Alfatune in St. Helens, its known he has tweaked the 1.7 TBi and MA engines.
Posted By: samsite999

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 09:32

Thanks SC, ill give them a lookup. Website needs a little work!
Posted By: Flea

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 09:43

It's a difficult and varied industry. With the advent of OBD flash mapping, especially diesels, the industry has a really wide variation of what is on offer, and also what is good. The reality being there are very few real tuners left, but rather car park "tuners" who have no knowledge of what they are doing other than to turn a laptop on, download - email file - receive email back - upload and then swipe your credit card for £200-300. Even the bigger tuning outfits invariably do no tuning, but follow the "bolt this and that on", and then upload Stage XX map. No tuning, and often no checking or dyno.

In many ways there is good reason for all this, ECUs are so incredibly complicated. It requires far more knowledge of just basic tuning i.e. AFR, ignition, boost. If I equate the 16vt Coupe, that to me is similar to a basic standalone like Emerald, DTA etc. It has a file size of 32kb, not overly complicated, but still requires good understanding to do it well. Consider the Coupe 20vt, a vastly more complex ecu and difficult to tune well especially to higher power level, it has a file size of 64kb. Now consider a modern car where we have file sizes of 2mb!! You then have to consider that Bosch, Marelli, Siemens, Denso, Ford Visteon etc, all work in different ways with very little common within the fundamental architecture. They also require different hardware for communications, many cannot be done via OBD. Chipping is not what it used to be!

For something like the Multiair, it will require me to remove the ecu, open it up and read out the data via BDM. The process of removing and opening an ecu can be very difficult and time consuming, and there is always an element of risk when opening the ecu (requires heat gun) as the ecu can be damaged during this process. Couple this with the time taken to tune the car (and I don't just mean a generic car park tune), and then for me I always test/tune on the road and dyno, it is by no means a straightforward task! If I was undertaking these daily then yes it would be possible to reduce time and costs somewhat, but I may see only one or two a year.

Originally Posted By: DaveG
Yes indeed, I don't think Flea needs to bother with us impoverished owners of Italian cars any more frown


Dave, come now, I still spend a huge part of my time with Coupes, all around the world! smile This week alone I have tuned two UK Coupes, and have some great build projects on the go. Of course I am a specialist tuner with other marques, and I field an inordinate number of calls, messages and quotations daily so I am always time poor. Only one day off this year so far!
Posted By: coupedummy

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 12:22

Originally Posted By: coupedummy
Nice day rate, flea buys the curry next time we're out!


I see you avoided one o the most important statements!
Posted By: Flea

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 17:59

Originally Posted By: coupedummy
Originally Posted By: coupedummy
Nice day rate, flea buys the curry next time we're out!


I see you avoided one o the most important statements!


I'll buy you a poppadom starter, how's that!! laugh
Posted By: magooagain

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 20:06

Originally Posted By: Flea
Originally Posted By: coupedummy
Originally Posted By: coupedummy
Nice day rate, flea buys the curry next time we're out!


I see you avoided one o the most important statements!


I'll buy you a poppadom starter, how's that!! laugh







You're just trying to curry favour now!
Posted By: Hyperlink

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 21:37

You could try ProAlfa in Watford. I am sure they can do it but no idea what they charge.
Posted By: coupedummy

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 23:15

Originally Posted By: Flea
Originally Posted By: coupedummy
Originally Posted By: coupedummy
Nice day rate, flea buys the curry next time we're out!


I see you avoided one o the most important statements!


I'll buy you a poppadom starter, how's that!! laugh


Getting generous in your old age!

Hope Sam finds someone as would love to see the results from these 1400cc
Posted By: samsite999

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 23:22

Originally Posted By: Flea
It's a difficult and varied industry. With the advent of OBD flash mapping, especially diesels, the industry has a really wide variation of what is on offer, and also what is good. The reality being there are very few real tuners left, but rather car park "tuners" who have no knowledge of what they are doing other than to turn a laptop on, download - email file - receive email back - upload and then swipe your credit card for £200-300. Even the bigger tuning outfits invariably do no tuning, but follow the "bolt this and that on", and then upload Stage XX map. No tuning, and often no checking or dyno.

In many ways there is good reason for all this, ECUs are so incredibly complicated. It requires far more knowledge of just basic tuning i.e. AFR, ignition, boost. If I equate the 16vt Coupe, that to me is similar to a basic standalone like Emerald, DTA etc. It has a file size of 32kb, not overly complicated, but still requires good understanding to do it well. Consider the Coupe 20vt, a vastly more complex ecu and difficult to tune well especially to higher power level, it has a file size of 64kb. Now consider a modern car where we have file sizes of 2mb!! You then have to consider that Bosch, Marelli, Siemens, Denso, Ford Visteon etc, all work in different ways with very little common within the fundamental architecture. They also require different hardware for communications, many cannot be done via OBD. Chipping is not what it used to be!

For something like the Multiair, it will require me to remove the ecu, open it up and read out the data via BDM. The process of removing and opening an ecu can be very difficult and time consuming, and there is always an element of risk when opening the ecu (requires heat gun) as the ecu can be damaged during this process. Couple this with the time taken to tune the car (and I don't just mean a generic car park tune), and then for me I always test/tune on the road and dyno, it is by no means a straightforward task! If I was undertaking these daily then yes it would be possible to reduce time and costs somewhat, but I may see only one or two a year.

Originally Posted By: DaveG
Yes indeed, I don't think Flea needs to bother with us impoverished owners of Italian cars any more frown


Dave, come now, I still spend a huge part of my time with Coupes, all around the world! smile This week alone I have tuned two UK Coupes, and have some great build projects on the go. Of course I am a specialist tuner with other marques, and I field an inordinate number of calls, messages and quotations daily so I am always time poor. Only one day off this year so far!


Fair comment, I wasn't aware you actually had to take of the ECU, pull it apart and directly read the chip. I thought it was a case of reading and then flashing though the port.

I have seen a few people go though the car park flash and walk away with really quite bad results.

Any how, I was also interested to see why people were writing the multiair off so quickly. If it was a technical issue as regards the complexity of the ECU (able to control air injection now) or if it was a case of there were no real returns or fail rates were high.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: multiair mapping - 17/03/2016 23:27

@flea

My research has shown there is not one single tuner worldwide that can remap the Panda 100hp.

Any idea why that maybe? I am sure there are some possible gains from what seems to be a peach of an engine.
Posted By: Hyperlink

Re: multiair mapping - 18/03/2016 09:07

I am pretty sure ProAlfa can map a panda 100. They have had one in for some pretty serious mods so must have remapped it unless they went for a complete new ecu.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: multiair mapping - 18/03/2016 09:11

The turbo'd ones need a new ECU and that has been done many a time. Although that presents other significant issues.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: multiair mapping - 18/03/2016 11:55

Contacted ProAlfa smile

"Good morning
Sorry the panda 100hp ecu is not mapable, the only option we have would be to run a standalone ecu at around £2000 fitted and mapped"

100hp works for me lol
Posted By: Hyperlink

Re: multiair mapping - 18/03/2016 12:08

Ah ok fair enough. I Wasn't completely sure what they had done on the one they had in. Its making 200hp now so whatever they did was pretty major I guess.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: multiair mapping - 18/03/2016 14:09

Indeed doesn't sound turbo'd either.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: multiair mapping - 18/03/2016 19:26

Originally Posted By: elder81
The turbo'd ones need a new ECU and that has been done many a time. Although that presents other significant issues.

I was looking at one of these on EBay the other day with some curiosity!
Out of interest, what "issues" arise by turbo charging a 100hp Panda?
Posted By: samsite999

Re: multiair mapping - 23/03/2016 15:40

Just a FYI Gus at Alfatune doesn't touch any fiat or alfa the MA units, he said he doesn't like them, and the fail rates are high and he doesnt want some one coming back with a MA failed blaming the mapping. I think thats the 3rd mapper now.
Posted By: wink

Re: multiair mapping - 24/03/2016 13:53

I can imagine that the MultiAir could be a lot of work to remap, as the ECU is presumably tweaking the effective valve timing continuously by sending commands to the solenoids which control the flow of oil & hence valve opening times, lift etc. But I've had a couple of multiair Alfas, and they have been great engines, both done reasonable mileages too with no problems.
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