Best state of tune?

Obviously if money, reliabilty and fabrication issues were no option we would all be Gt30/Holset monsters but taking in to consideration cost, ease of fitment, power and reliability what would you say is the best state of tune?

For example ill use a Saab 9-5 Aero as a good car to try and explain what i mean. Stage 3 is readily accepted as the best package as it will give you a 60-70 hike in bhp (model depending 230/260 as standard) and only requires a 3" DP, 3.5 FPR and a remap and is pretty safe on the engine and box but only costs around 350/400 quid all in. Ideally id like to get my 20VT to around the 300bhp mark. Is it just an FMIC, Hybrid turbo and live map?

Cheers.

Phil

Yes

I know this isn't really an answer to the question, but the best state of tune I think may be standard!

Mine isn't before you ask.

I don't really consider there to be such a thing as a "best state of tune." You can make an expensive, unreliable 300 bhp, or a good value, reliable 400 bhp.

Also 300 bhp isn't always 300 bhp: 300 is the magic number that everyone wants to break, but a lot of Coupe owners want to do it on the cheap; stock pistons (actually, 300 is fine for 20VT pistons), stock exhaust system, tiny turbo. So in order to save the engine, the torque has to be wound back. The result is, yeah, it makes 300, 340 or whatever, but it's slow as [cloud9] because it doesn't have the torque to really make it move. 'Course, nobody knows that because practically every modded 20VT on here has exactly the same mods and tuning!

So I think the best state of tune is the best that you can afford and what's most suitable for your intended use - be it 500 bhp or 0 bhp!

What would be your redommended harware for 300bhp? I said 300bhp as it puts you just out of reach of various BMWs, Subaru's and Evos etc. Ive gone well beyond 300bhp with past motors but would like to keep this one relatively sane.

Having had several coupes ranging from standard to utterly berserk, I would say the best state of tune is my theoretical "stage 0.5"

This is a pretty much bog-standard car, with new (standard) suspension, serviced brakes with good quality pads, a strut brace and a live map - that's it

Ok, it might be worth doing the fuel pump "live feed" mod as a precaution, but for a performance versus cost calculation, keep it very close to standard and it'll be an epic drive

I've not much experience, in fact my coupe is the most powerful car I've driven at 260 bhp but I'd say stage 1 remap is the best state of tune. Relatively inexpensive and not too demanding on components.

You can get 260/265 for a couple hundred pounds but for 300bhp your talking a good £1200+.

If your anything like me you'll have a list of other jobs you'll want to do on your coupe so why not spend the extra on those jobs?

GT2860R 62-trim comp, 64 a/r housing. Bigger injectors (set of 5 refurbed 16VT injectors to keep it on the cheap!), 255 lph fuel pump, 2.5" downpipe and exhaust system. Easy 300, great torque - plus easier on the engine because it's not trying to force its way through a drinking straw

Thanks chaps. The temptation of chasing the ponies is there. Hybrid turbo and will cost around 150 quid for me and I have plenty of piping and silicon for an FMIC which range from 25-75 quid second hand but I think I'll just go for the live map and get a few jobs done on it. Thanks for the input fellas.

Phil - when the weather is better, pop round to mine and I'll take you out in my Coupe - that'll sort your modding priorities

yup spot on

This plus a better exhaust.
At least a back box to release the noise of the 5 pot!

yup but add a Gtec1, mechanical boost valve and an exhaust..sorted.

Little change of plan. Any idea what bhp I'll be looking at with a live map with the following done....

Fuel pump wiring mod
Evo 6 FMIC
Powerflow cat back (looks around 3" and starts about a foot away from turbo)
K&N panel filter.

Going to see Flea Saturday. Won't have time to dyno but would be happy if I could break 270 bhp. Going on rollers 20th May.

300 bhp = quick car

But exist also turns!

So, in my opinion, after 80bhp upgrade, you will need drilled disc, new brake pads (DS2500 or ebc yellow, 150 gbp for a set), new brake hose (80 gbp), new springs (I remember 150 gbp from FCSS), and rebuilt shocks.
And probably 17 inch alloys.

Alhough I will make half the job.
Power is nothing without control.

Nigel, how would the Stage 0.5 coupe compare to a 400bhp coupe in the real world? As I have been driving something similar with a superspool and remap, but the turbo I think is on the way out, so was looking at the next step. The car used to be a daily, but at the moment is only used on weekends. I have been looking at the new(ish) Garrett gtx turbo range (gtx2860/63).

At a guess 265ish bhp.

The difference between 200-odd and 400-odd bhp can only be experienced. Not only the speed, but the way it accelerates at various points in the rpm range. Very different beasts. Basically, you'll think your car is fast - until you've you've experienced 400+ bhp done properly! Not compromised by holding back torque in order to protect stock pistons, or anything like that.

You're very close to me in Uxbridge. Why not pop over and I'll take you for a spin in mine

I've seen your coupe a couple of times because I'm only down the road in Windsor looks nice though.

It doesn't really matter on torque on the 20v turbo you don't get massive torque gains from the 20v turbo even when your in the 500 bhp club.

You don't need to worry about the piston letting go more on the rods because the torque bends them but saying that I'm running around 350 torque and over 400 bhp on standard rods and piston it's been a couple of years now and still fine .

So you can do it the cheaper way without forged rods and piston
But get flea to map it .

The only thing with the standard internals at that power is the mapping is very gentle and power is gradual. As we have seen with the hard hitting turbos which give a shed load of hp and torque as soon as possible then the rods start to bend or the Pistons lands crack.

Also depends on what you use the coupe for? around town with the odd squirt or 10-15 laps at a time on regular track days.

Having read other threads on this subject I'd decided to just leave mine standard (but well sorted). Might be changing my mind now after reading this thread and speaking to JBT.

The last owner added a 3" exhaust and a K&N cone filter but left it with a standard map - I've never liked the whoosh sound of the filter to be honest. Left my Coupe with JBT today for a bit of an overhaul and we got talking about the set up. Reckon I either need it taking totally back to standard, or take advantage of the exhaust and filter and go for the 0.5 stage as mentioned. Might call the insurance company tomorrow...

As others have said, the best thing you will ever do is get a live map by Flea, you won't believe the difference it makes to the car even in standard form.

Go back to a standard air box and a k&n pannel filter it will still breath nicely but get rid of the noise

i have the apexi cone filter on.... for the exact same reason... i got my coupe with the K & N induction kit on it and driving it home the woosh noise got a little annoying. so the third day i had her i replaced it with the Apexi cone filter... £110 from ebay, i then stopped the woosh noise right away.

at the same time i also put a forge dump valve on to swap out the worn plastic one.

the other noise that was a bit loud was the powerflow exhaust.... so a visit to flea to make a custome stainless exhaust sorted that problem out... i have 3 inch complete system but with silencers in it to calm down the noise a bit, but still give me performance.

i should have some pictures of it on my facebook photo albums if you wanted to see things.

Ive gone for the Apexi too, it's cheaper from Nengun if you don't mind a 4 week wait as its posted from Japan!

It's louder than standard and comes with the dark fader sucking noise from the glovebox. The bonus is its a dry filter, so there's no risk of contaminating the MAF by over oiling a wet type filter like a K&N. All told I'm happy with it.

Thanks kj,I might take you up on that offer.




Thanks, but the paintwork has seen better days. Hopefully I will sort out the mechanicals Thos year, and respray next.

Leighton is working his magic on it as I type this. Looking forward to picking it up in an hour or so. Bonus is I've got a nice little Clio sport to run around in. Been a while since i drove one and forgot how much fun they were.

I've always said that a 280-300bhp Coupe will be 90% as quick along a nice B road as a 450bhp Coupe. In fact on some B roads (bumpy and very twisty) the lower-powered car could even be faster, due to an early spool-up and more compliant suspension.

However, once you get onto a road that allows a big-power Coupe to be let off the leash, the difference is night and day. Its massively entertaining and supremely addictive. The way that VERY illegal speeds can be reached in a few seconds gives me a smile every time. I took mine out today (into Motormech for a bit of gearbox and suspension work, as well as fitting my modified hubs for the floating brake discs) - ran it through to the rev limiter in a couple of gears and found myself chuckling at the absurdity of the speeds it can get to

TBH, for an everyday car, that's going to be used for the daily commute, you can't beat standard, plus a handful of choice mods:-

Remap
Strut brace
Decent brakes
Decent tyres
Nice exhaust

With that lot, you'll have a 250+ bhp car, that will cost very modest money, be ultra-reliable (with the right maintenance) and will stop and steer nicely too

However, once you've experienced how well the Coupe responds to a few gentle mods, its very difficult not to carry on....

and on....


and on, ad infinitum, which is how you end up with a 450+ bhp monster

I think I may well have found the best state of tune then Nigel. Nice result on the rollers today.

What are your mods Phil and how'd you get on with the Fleamap?

FMIC
K&N panel filter
Power flow cat back
Fuel pump wiring mod

Think that's it.

Very pleased with results after mapping. Think Flea said 278 is the highest he's seen on standard tb28 set up. Have a guess what mine made?

I'm certainly going to throw a spanner in the works here.

Big horse power does not equal better state of tune. Torque however is the one you want relevant to the car. I've seen/heard high horses in a car coughing & spluttering just not set up properly for a road going car. As said a standard car with a fresh suspension & good brakes will be a far better experience than something maxed to hell.

Gotta be 278 then! 😊

Bit more

Totally agree, torque is King

I'll go for 285, and that's basically the same spec as mine bar an Apexi cone.

& there we have it. Realistically any mechanic worth their job knows this along with any tuner. Before even I was aware of performance associated with vehicles.....

Bit more

No problem Give me a ring when you want to pop round: 07900 324331

BTW, I just today finished mapping mine for its new Cat cams, and now it's making even more touquey horsepowerey goodness!

Torque ALWAYS matters! Afterall, it's torque that moves your car, not horsepower. HP is an important measurement but at the end of the day it's still just a function of torque.

On a track with long straights, having a lot of hp over torque can be useful. But on the street you could very well find that your 20VT with 350 lbft & 400 bhp doesn't accelerate any quicker than another 20VT with 350 lbft and, say, 370 bhp. In fact you could even find that it gets beaten! It totally depends on where all that torque is made and how it's spread across the RPM range. As they say; it's all bout area under the curve!

Too much fixation on peak bhp figures on this forum!

This kinda goes back to what I mentioned previously: If practically all the cars on this forum have exactly the same mods from exactly the same manufactures, running maps from exactly the same place, how do you know that your Coupe's performance is the best that can be had from a Coupe? Personally when I see Coupes on here with all hp and low lb, I just see Coupes that haven't reached their full potential.

As Countrycruising and Jimboy said: "Torque is king!"

Of course torque matters, Kj16v tells it as it is. I totally agree with too much involvement with HP when torque was king far long ago even when I was around. After the second world war the Yanks were putting their knowledge into beefing up cars to race, go fast....hot rodding. This was the infancy of modding as we know it today. Nothing to do with my thoughts, facts.

I suspect that the majority of the cars on this forum are mapped with mechanical sympathy in mind. This was the recommended approach with my first coupe (320/ 320) as I didn't want to spend more money on supporting mods.

People have tongues in their heads, so if they want big torque they only need to ask. They will just need to stock pile gearboxes or go down the Quaife route then, although I doubt there are many people left on this forum looking to spend that sort of money on these old cars now.

Torque kills gearboxes and other components.....as I found out first hand, and so has the new owner of my coupe.

Having had one of most powerful coupes on here, as well as the one mentioned above, my advice would be to stick within the capabilities of the factory clutch, sort the brakes and suspension, and enjoy what is a fantastic car for the money.

Sorry Phil - More importantly, what were your results?

No apologies needed, its a good discussion.

It made 292bhp and 291ft/lbs iirc. Not bad for a tb28 on a warm Combe afternoon. Think I'll put the hybrid on ice for now.

Great results Phil

my spare knackered turbo turned into a hybrid for £650, large front mount intercooler kit off a coupe being broken £75 decat £35 scorpian cat back system ( on the car already) live map and rolling road £350ish porto coupe £300 off a forum member
result 297 bhp torque 297ish
so for just under 1500 i have a coupe that i have done 7 track days with and still not blown up! i would have to say 300bhp is the magic number and i can get all the power down in second gear upwards

[/quote] kj16v

Torque ALWAYS matters! Afterall, it's torque that moves your car, not horsepower. HP is an important measurement but at the end ofe day it's still just a function of torque.

On a track with long straights, having a lot of hp over torque can be useful. But on the street you could very well find that your 20VT with 350 lbft & 400 bhp doesn't accelerate any quicker than another 20VT with 350 lbft and, say, 370 bhp. In fact you could even find that it gets beaten! It totally depends on where all that torque is made and how it's spread across the RPM range. As they say; it's all bout area under the curve!

Too much fixation on peak bhp figures on this forum!

This kinda goes back to what I mentioned previously: If practically all the cars on this forum have exactly the same mods from exactly the same manufactures, running maps from exactly the same place, how do you know that your Coupe's performance is the best that can be had from a Coupe? Personally when I see Coupes on here with all hp and low lb, I just see Coupes that haven't reached their full potential.

As Countrycruising and Jimboy said: "Torque is king!" [/quote]

Kj if you know the 20v turbo then you know for a 5 pot it doesn't make massive torque gains even when you speak to the Brazilian and Portuguese lot who has been in 700 bhp for a long time now even when you do the 2.4 conversion still ain't massive torque but a lot better then the 2.0l if you look at say the ford st the Evo Vxr etc etc they get better torque gains friend of mine st 430 bhp with 505 Ibft much more then what I have and he can't keep with me from second gear .
But you are right torque gets you going and bhp keeps you going

Cheers. Been having "much fun" in it this morning.

glad you enjoing your car.... are you planning any further mods on it i wonder ?

Not just yet but I never say never.

And here is the dyno run.

If the engine gets forged, and torque and bhp is sought the proper way, at what point does the gearbox and viscodrive unit become the limiting factor?

When the driver throws caution to the wind

Looking good!

What boost setting did you settle for?

Glad its been worth while! its definitely a buzz when you get good results, like having a whole new toy all over again!

My biggest fear was to of spent time and money and get a disappointing result, thanks to Flea it wasnt!

Great stuff

Having read your other threads, were you running any thinners?

No thinners. Just 99 Ron Momentum.

Viscodrive struggles at much over 350bhp. The weakpoint in the gearbox is the diff, which can shatter the planet gears if it gets a substantial shock load. If you're gentle with launches, the standard box will happily cope with 500bhp+

I asked Phil the very same question Dave! An unusually receptive Coupe to tuning that allowed me to be really quite aggressive, especially in the mid-range. It's not often I see a well oiled standard engine, one that has loosened up well with regular exercise into the upper reaches. It is generally this type of driving nature coupled with good fuel and oil that frees the engine, with little carbon deposits. It certainly helps to have a bigger intercooler, pretty much the weakest component on the standard Coupe. Really pleased for Phil, an effortless result from his car

Cheers mate. Certainly a great result. Had a double take when Leighton phoned me with the results as I was expecting around the 270 mark. I was lucky enough to see the motor on the rollers too as the original dyno plot was.....ahem....misplaced

I've never run any of my motors on anything less than the best fuel. It did cross my mind about using thinners but I'm not sure how the Coupe would respond. Other performance motors I've owned have responded really well and the drop in performance is very evident when you stop using them. It's pretty safe to say that all of my motors have a hard life but I'm a stickler for regular servicing using recommended fluids etc. I know the 2 previous owners kept the car in great condition and drove the car as it should be as I've done a few track days with them (one chap had a 500 bhp Saab 9-5 and the other a 500 bhp Saab 9000) so the engine should be nice and free. Goes without saying if anyone reading this is thinking about looking at a bit more shove that's safe and usable get onto Flea and he'll extract the best out of your motor (oh and rag your motor and use good fuel)

This is very true of the 20vt engine. A shorter stroke and an inlet manifold with very short runners lends itself to higher horsepower with lower torque, especially when modifiying. It's an unusual engine in this regard, certainly compared to the modern competition, where fast early torque is preferred, and generally exacerbated the further you modify.

Torque is king, yes indeed. The turbo diesel is the ultimate example of this, and one that just begs to be tuned for even more gratification. I did three last week, all different, but all just so enjoyable after the event. However, torque and horsepower are not mutually exclusive, they are linked at all times beyond the headline figure. For turbo cars we have torque in spades, and when tuning you optimise every element of the engine. For a standard car this generally means bigger gains in mid-range torque than horsepower, for heavily modified cars it will mean bigger gains in horsepower than torque. This is the nature of the beast where displacement stays the same, and engine efficiency elevates with higher revs especially where a bigger turbo is concerned. The holy grail is to achieve big early torque across a wide rpm band, that takes care of everything. This is why I developed new turbos for the Coupe.

I could read about real life tuning all day.

You haven't got a sale coming up, Leighton?

Or a 'map one turbo, map a Vis for free' offer?

If you are not in a rush I am sure we can work something out I go under the knife in two weeks for a hip replacement, so will be out of action for a while. Hoping to be back early July.

Must've worn your hip out bending under all those bonnets.
Good luck with the op.
Mobilisation post op is the key to a good recovery. Manage the pain and listen to the physios.
Are you going for a standard hip joint or an uprated one for better performance? .

Hope all goes well with the op leighton. Those wallets get real heavy at times

And far too many bloody hills!

All the best for the op!

Good luck
Your be up walking around the next day. I had my left hip done in 98 at the age of 26 after having a motorbike crash in 95. I'm still on the first one 17 years later plus still ride

That is very good to hear, pleased you are doing well with it and I hope I will likewise. I have put off for a while now not knowing the longevity of these things!

Gents - if this thread descends into another tuner v tuner bun-fight, it will undoubtedly be locked, resulting in yet another interesting and informative thread being canned due to no fault of the OP

The thread is about the BEST state of tune, not the highest....

So - in an attempt to bring it back on topic, I'll repeat what I've mentioned earlier - the nicest Coupe I've ever driven was utterly bog standard (a low-mileage Plus). The fastest I've ever driven is my own very highly modified Plus.

Therefore, the definition of "best" is surely a moving feast, depending on your needs for that particular moment.

If someone asked me to drive 500 miles on the motorway or DCs, (or 50 miles in heavy traffic) I'd have a standard Coupe (on standard wheels) every time. If someone asked me to drive 500 miles without touching a motorway or DC, I'd have a 300-ish bhp Coupe with uprated suspension and brakes. If someone asked me to drive 500 miles round Silverstone, I'd have my own mad Coupe.

Horses for courses, and I don't think there's a single answer to the question, which is why I now have an Alfa GT for the commute, and the Coupe for fun

Mod wand waved. Now, where were we? A nice chat with the OP, I believe...!

Hello all!

In my opinion in the many states of tune I had my coupe in, one of the best was possibly when I had a small turbo on a 2.4. It was in all ways better than the standard engine, more responsive, turbo came in earlier etc.

Dont mind me. I'm still getting to grips with the forum dynamics. Car still going well

I think it's quite difficult to suggest the best state of tune unless you drive them all

I love mine with a gt28rs fmic etc. pulling 358bhp 311lbs ft
Mapped by Flea really nice and smooth with good response all the way through and still fairly quick off boost! It is definitely better than the stock 20vt but there may well be a better variant between the two that I won't know about unless I drive it!

The only thing I think is the most important and probably overlooked for an everyday car is the clutch!
I like the feel of my standard clutch and don't want a paddle one so probably the best state of tune is the best you can get on the standard clutch! Well that's my oppinion!

However having said that it's difficult to resist the temptation to want more and more power as its so addictive!!

I really do think there is "best state of tune". As I said in my first post, if you take into consideration the cost, how labour intensive it is, bang per buck (bhp/torque per £££) and how reliable it is after. I think I could be around that mark now. To get my motor to 290+bhp/torque its cost £330 all in. Not a bad yeild all things considered. Having said that I think it's safe to say I'll be chasing the ponies again some time in the near future.

Hang on, most 'standard turbo remaps' will be on the standard intercooler!

Yes Ryan, that's why I said it helps to have a bigger FMIC! It's not a requirement, and not many people will go to the effort of fitting one just for a Stage 1, but if you do then all the better. Same as using a good fuel.

Is there a recommendation for a stage 1 intercooler that wouldn't comprise spool?

There used to be Pace SMIC YEARS ago but it was debated whether it was better than the standard unit at all. I think as long as it's bug enough to cool down the intake temps, its big enough to introduce more lag.

Of course, the remap would probably offset all of this if you had it done at the same time...

I got that; I just thought it should be pointed out that this set-up should probably not be compared with the rest of the standard remapped cars. Personally, I don’t it hasn’t knocked off the highest bhp’d standard car.



Reminds me of the conversation we had regarding the Mk1 Focus RS. Don’t they come with a 2.75” turbo back exhaust to start with? I know the GT28R helps them off the bat too, but it always seems that the Coupé 20vT engine has just about the worst selection of bolts on imaginable.

But that's the question really, at what point does it beome overkill and you can't map around it?

Very pleased with my new larger intercooler thanks to Leighton.

Coup seems to have a bit more power now too

It's kind of an open-ended question really. Because it would totally depend on the design the intercooler, which is an entire topic in itself.

If we talk about the ones that are commonly fitted to Coupes It's probably these "universal" ones similar to the link below:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-FRON...=item27fa7f97e4

and the "Evo 3" type ones.

When I tested one of the small intercoolers on one of my Coupes a few years ago I found the lag was minimal and was easily mapped around. Fitting a 2.5" exhaust system also had the same effect of reducing lag - but then I guess that's not really stage 1 any more! The efficiency worked out to be, 80-odd% (can't remember the exact number!) which is good - plus it also fit behind the bumper with very little cutting! So that would definitely be a good size for "stage 1", IMO.

The Evo IC on the other hand - huge and would obviously overkill for a stock Coupe! Still works of course, but just unnecessarily big.

The 2nd hand Evo 6 IC I bought from a forum member was anything but a straight fit but with some imagination a dremel and a hacksaw you can get it in. The IC, fitting kit and 180 degree silicon bend came in at under £100 so its a no brainer for me. Not sure that if it helped me reach the figures I got but it will certainly help with heat soak when doing multiple WOT pulls. After having driven the car hard since mapping there is around a chunk of 200rpm of lag. Not really noticeable tbh and the extra bhp/torque more than makes up for it.

Thanks for the link, strangely enough I've got that one in my watch list. If that's similar to one you've tried I'll take a punt on it.

I think Phil's got what I'd think to be a good state of tune. Basically just beyond standard so you get enough extra everywhere in the rev range that your car feels alive like it would on a cold crisp morning. But not far enough that other components are too fragile.

Not standard cars, but cars with standard TB28 turbos!



Yes the RS has a very good turbo as standard, coupled with an excellent chargecooler and larger bore exhaust. Only a decat needed to see 300bhp, plus a tubular manifold for 320-330bhp with my Sabre Stage 2 mapping. The engines are also good for 400bhp+ as standard!

The Coupe 20v has some very good engine parts though, good sized throttle body, excellent plenum/inlet manifold, and good cylinder head, excellent exhaust manifold (despite the cracks). All these components are fine for 500bhp which is pretty darn good for standard components!

I have the Pro Alloy FMIC with the original routing, and against the standard SMIC my full boost (17.5psi) changed from 2,400 -> 2,600 rpm in 4th and 5th. It's harder to get an accurate reading in 1st-3rd! All told barely noticeable vs standard.

Flea or Phil, were the power runs with the standard cat?

AFAIK is running a standard cat with a PowerFlow cat back exhaust.

Thanks Phil, again great results, and probably one of the "best states of tune!"