Cold feet

Hi all

Firstly my heartfelt thanks for all the help and advice.

So why the title "Cold feet"

Well having driven a 20v turbo when it was just 2 years old, I can understand the passion. It was one of the most unexpected drives have ever had.

Not only was it quiet, smooth, progressive and comfortable. It was also (Please insert usual expletives here) fast, and much faster than expected. Bear in mind I was a General manager for a main dealer, and we had Scooby's, ST24's, R-Type Honda's etc.

The Fiat blew my mind, partly because for a Fiat it was so unexpected. That shows my ignorance of Fiat more than anything, they have made some amazingly quick cars, and some daft ones!

Anyway, back to the point... Son is still very keen, but after reading my intro thread he is starting to panic a bit. Well panic may be the wrong word, being sensible is a better description.

The thought that he may have to spend a £1,000 a year in maintenance is scaring him, the stories of really well maintained examples going bang is making him wary too (See, I told you he was a sensible 21 year old!)

So the question is, are they really that bad? Will he have to spend £1,000 a year just to keep it going? Truth be told I cannot answer these questions, but you folks can.

He still desperately wants one, and a forum member is going to view the car of his dreams this week. (Thanks Joe)

So will it be the car of his dreams, or his and our worst nightmare?

Bill

It's really just a matter of trying to buy the best one you can afford and keep some savings in the bank, just in case.

For a 20vt, you are looking at average supply and fit prices of around £500 for a cambelt change, £500 for a clutch change, £300 for cheap brake discs and pads all around, £400 for oil cooler and pipes, £200 for a service, including spark plugs, etc, etc.

Other things to budget for are tyres, bottom arms, track rod ends, drop links, any part of the exhaust failing, etc, etc, the list could go on forever.

The car probably won't need all this in one go and some of the work may have been done already, but your son does need to keep cash back spare, for anything that could go wrong.

Reading the 'how to' guides on here will help save some cash, especially if you/your son know some basics about cars.

I'm sure, being sensible, he will save some money for the maintenance of the car and be prepared.

I'd say, for general maintenance and wear and tear, at least allow £500 a year.

Another £500 spare cash saved if possible, will allow for anything unexpected.

Buy the car, let your son give the car a chance and keep it maintained. If he can't afford it, well, at least he's give it a go and you can sell it on and he can maybe buy one again in the future

Thanks Theresa,

He's a very sensible man, and I am proud of that. I thought I had found the perfect car, but it was £400.00 over his highest budget. Although this was from a respected Coupe dealer his attitude was, I can't afford that, and maybe I need to rethink this.

However, it is the car he wants and I think he should give it a go. We will help as much as we can. But he does very much stand on his own 2 feet, and doesn't want any financial help.

We will see what Joe says when he looks at the car. Thanks for the thoughts and info.

Bill

(Edited coz I got Joe's name wrong and called him Jim, sorry Joe!)

I cannot thing of anything else with this level of factory performance that so cheap to run. As mentioned, just buy the best you can initially and reap the rewards....

Just a thought Bill...

If your son is a bit worried about the cost of maintaining a 20VT, perhaps a non-turbo 20v might be a good choice? You still get all the style of the turbo model, the performance is still pretty good, and they sound

The initial purchase price will be cheaper, insurance will be cheaper, and the running costs should be less.

Buy a loved well care for car with stacks of history and an owner that knows it inside out. I bought my car on the history and the owner rather than the overall condition of the bodywork. It's a bit tatty round the edges but mechanically it's sound.

I've owned my car since Nov 2007 and have done 35,000 miles and the faulty parts I've replaced on top of general servicing costs are:

Thermostat & temp sensor £90 (I bought direct from Fiat rather than from alternative autos - idiot!)
Battery £60
Electronic Boost Valve -> PRV £15
Bonnet Strut £30
Front Discs & Pads £110
Rocker Cover Gasket ~£20
Clip for door handle 50p
NRV for rear wash wipe £2.50p
Clutch Slave cylinder £40 (can't remember exactly)
Radiator £115
Washer pump £5
Replaced exhaust with 2nd hand one £50
Handbrake cable £30
3 sets of 2x Toyo Proxes T1R's £400

Total £968 including £400 worth of tyres

The above is essential maintenance. I have also replaced:
Wishbones
Track Rod Ends
ARB Drop Links
Top Mounts
Rear stabiliser link for engine
All boost hose clips from GB
Which came to circa £300

Grand total is £1240 plus servicing costs. Or £620 per year + a minor and major service per year - this is simply down to the over average amount of miles I do per year.

My car is a '99 with 112k on the clock. Before I owned it it had a replacement clutch and all the belts done. It's still on original turbo and holds 2.5 bar hot oil pressure at idle. It's due another clutch and belt change within the next 2 years and will need another set of tyres in the next 2k miles.

Oh I forgot to add I fitted everything myself to save on the labour costs.

Hope that helps.

buy patch's car - sorted.....

Mine is just a weekend car with a job list to attack, so far iv changed disks, pads, oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter, redex fuel cleaner, radiator, turbo, downpipe, exhurst rubber mount, drivshaft, handbrake cables, front lights, rear wiper motor, New termostate, re-wired the stereo's iso plug, tan leather interior, nomad pulley pods, clock rings, balieys dump valve, gtec 2 chip and 6months tax

next is the manifold and a stud, then a call to rog's dent guy to get it dent free, get the alloys refurbed, then when iv got the money sorted out its going to get resprayed

Iv owned my car since October just gone and iv spent roughly £900ish and iv still got about £2000 to go

all labour cost £0 so far

yer true, he's done a good job

£1000 a year is actually pretty good to cover servicing and maintenance of a car with this sort of performance. Once you factor in fuel costs and insurance (what quotes has he had at 21?!) I would have thought £20 a week (which is all we're talking about) was fairly insignificant. As others have said, if he buys a well-sorted (standard) car (recent clutch, recent cambelt, recent fixed manifold, recon'd turbo, perhaps lower arms too) he probably won't face bills for a while anyway but eventually something will need doing (radiator, brakes, handbrake cables, etc.) But if anyone thinks this is expensive, try running a WRX.

why not just take out an extended car warrenty?

http://www.click4warranty.co.uk/
I just had a quote £257.56 all in and the options for cover on the turbo and other things for an extra £10.

Buy a normal looking car and it can develop a fault.

Buy a Fiat Coupe and it can develop a fault, while looking good.

Just done a quote for mine too - hmmm... things that sound too good to be true usually are...

TBH - we can't!

Any car can have something go wrong with it and cause an unexpected dent in your wallet. You can minimise this by buying the best car you can from someone who's looked after it properly. Other than that - it's keep your fingers crossed.

That said, I've spent nowhere near £1000 a year maintainng mine and never had a major problem with her (touch wood) mostly because I bought a very very very very good example

Although mine is tatty round the edges I have spent very little on the car. I have had it 5 years and probably spent less than £1500 on maintenance. (My dad does own a garage so I don't pay labour or for my servicing and have not included mods, although they are minor mods)

In the 5 years I have had it it has only gone wrong once! Coolant hose burst. I drove to and from Doncaster and around doncaster last week. 500 miles approx and she ran like a dream. The only thing for me is fuel cost so I drive my OH cinq most of the time!

As Lickyl said any car can cost you a fortune. If you buy good (I did) then you can hope for a good life!

I'm with you on that, I realised with the funds I had available that it made sense to get a fairly good 20v rather than a rough 20VT as I rarely need the extra performance.

The 20v is no slouch either and it gives my mates Focus ST170 a good run for its money, it doesnt have the torque of a Turbo or the V6 I had in my ST24 but it revs and revs and if you use the gears right, its easily as quick as my ST24 was.

I got mine last November and I don't regret it!

John

I agree, I have had a number of cars of various types, including some high performance ones and don't regret my VIS at all. Lots of useable power, that awesome 5 pot sound and while I will probably move to a turbo one day, the VIS is certainly sufficient for most needs

I'll second what has been said about the 20v as a great option. If he wants to drive enthusiastically it is rewarding at legal speeds.

I've had a 20v for a year and a 20VT for three.
Nothing went wrong with the 20v.
On the 20VT The oil cooler pipe recently sprang a dripping leak costing £60 to fix, and a sunroof relay broke costing £2 to fix.

There are numerous parts sources as well so if you shop around things like belts and wishbones needn't cost the earth although there is a fair amount of labour in a belt change.

A 20VT is also tight for space under the bonnet so you need a really excellent set of high quality tools 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4" with lots of different length extensions and UJs to go to work on it.

i think its worth adding, any car can spring a bill on you, not just because its a fiat coupe.

if you look after a car of any discription, drive it well, maintain it well, and, most importantly, dont mess with it (i.e add modifications not designed into it from new) there is no reason why it wont go for ever (ish).

a lot of cars on this forum (mine included) have had things done to them that were never designed to be done, and so no one in the world can know what effect this will have on reliability over the course of a year, or ten years for that matter.

also, the way any car is driven will affect its longevity, for instance avoiding bumping over pot holes, or not pushing the engine when cold, the list is endless.

in my view, the coupe is no better or worse than any car of its age, however the reputation that "old fiats" have for being a pain does stick when you are facing a tough job, or hefty repair bill.

again though, you have to bear in mind, the last coupe rolled off the line in what, 2000? so they are all at least 10 years old, and compared to a modern car, very basic in comparison.

yes the coupe's their particular systems etc, but its just a car at the end of the day.

no (good) mechanic would have any problems working on one, after all, its based on a bloody tipo!
having said that, and as has been said in above posts, the cambelt change is tricky and time consuming in particularly on the 20v models.

there is a simple way to solve your dilema however with an old saying - buy cheap buy twice.

spend a little more to get a good example coupe and then treat it well, and you will not go wrong.

I've spent nothing but service+mot a few years, a couple of years of about £800 each year (stuff like belts, wishbones, wheel bearings, radiator) and last year nothing but service and mods (you can't really count mods - it's voluntary).

They are jobs you would do on any car.

I know some people have more problems, but keep it standard, don't thrash it cold, and be willing to spend a grand on maintenance every now when a few jobs roll up - not all the time - but don't think you can spend nothing on it, that's how lemons are made.

....

i still dont get why people say its 1000 a year on maint. thats not true if you buy the coupe with it dont then it will last like a new car.

if you buy a coupe cheap then spent the money saved on the servicing parts then it will last the same.

people that pay 500 for a coupe and exspect it to last are crazy.

Errrr not with you there!

Had my 03 WRX for 18 months and apart from 2 services, 2 tyres, 1 headlight bulb and a wiper blade it has cost me nothing.

Just been MOT'd for the second time during my ownership and passed again with no advisories. My previous Scoob (Classic) which I owned for 2 years, again cost me nothing above servicing and tyres.

MPG is similar (a little less), servicing costs are the same and insurance is cheaper.

But its a lot uglier

Forget the 20VT, tell him to get a Scoob.

I suspect that many see over a grand a year on maintenance *because* they buy a car which is suddenly in need of that maintenance.

Which makes sense - if you're not really intending to keep it, why would you do it if you can flog it off cheap and be done with it? So you're buying a car which looks cheap but needs this work done *now*.

But these hugely expensive jobs... well, even if you do clutch, cambelt, and a set of boots you're looking at under twelve hundred quid - and you only have to do that once in five years (well, more for the tyres, but you know what I mean). Other than that, what are you looking at? Oil and filters service twice a year (or once, for a low-miler or NA) at under a couple of hundred? There's nothing here that you would not spend on *any* car of this vintage.

Think about what you're spending on it over a year - on any car, at say 12,000 miles and 30mpg:
1/2 set tyres: £200
2 services: £400
1/5 clutch: £80
1/5 cambelt: £60
10 litres oil: £40
Total servicing: £780

Petrol: 400 gallons at £1.10/litre: £2,000
Insurance: anywhere from £200 to £2,000
Road tax: £210

These are back of the fag packet numbers. I haven't included e.g. brake disc and pad replacement, but I'd hope that the service cost would approximate those.

My point is that irrespective of car you're driving, if it's more than five years old and doing the same sort of mileage, the only place you can realistically save money is in the insurance. Whatever you drive is going to cost you at least three grand a year to drive, ignoring insurance (and the cost of any loans). Whatever you drive is going to cost much the same to fix bumps and scrapes, to replace new light bulbs and so on.

So my belief is that it is quite reasonable to expect to need around seven or eight hundred quid for maintenance per year on *any* car, unless you drop lucky and it's had the belts and clutch done before you got it. In which case, you can save a couple of hundred quid a year and you'll have the dosh when you need it. But as the maintenance is only a third of the cost of the petrol...

They say that dogs end up looking like their owners, is the same true for cars

Bought mine in October and I made sure I got a low mileage, none turbo, minter which had just had "everything done" at motormech.

I am spening on bits and bobs like brand new pin badges, chrome rings, bought and having refurbed in anthracite some alloys etc etc but thats my choice as I want it it to be as near to new as possible, but other than that I am not expecting any large bills.

As everyone else has said getting a none turbo with FSH etc will help :-)

I may be wrong but I went to a Subaru garage at the time I got my Coupe and they said the Impreza has 6000 mile service intervals.
That is fine if it is an oil change in the driveway, but I couldn't imagine returning it every couple of months to Subaru for a service just to keep the book stamped.

Agree with all the above, cars are money pits. Purchase, insurance, PETROL, maintenance, breakdown cover, tax... You either buy brand new, and spend 10-15k+, and foolishly scoff at other older cars that break down. Or spend 10-15k+ on a brand new car and STILL find it breaks down. Or buy an older car for a tenth or fifteenth of the price and spend money maintaining it.

My Lexus was a beautiful car, GS300SE 2001 plate, bought because, amongst other reasons, it would never go wrong. It didn't. But it cost £200+/month on chucky. I don't spend pro rata anything like that on my Coupe if I don't want to (I do because it's kind of my hobby and more than just transport).

The reason forum viewers assume the worst is because we're all so keen on here to talk about issues and problems, I would still bet that Coupes are not any more unreliable than the next car, and tonight and tomorrow morning I will still be driving past newer transport, broken down on the hard shoulder on the M1, waiting for the AA.

Service intervals are 10K miles/12 months.

I have mine done at 8k miles and like coupe owners don't use main dealers. There are plenty of Scooby specialists around.

I'm not trying to talk kiltbill's son into buying a Scooby, just pointing out to an earlier poster that maintaining a Scoob is no more expensive than a coupe

Problem is (and each to their own) but they are not the best looking cars in the world - at least the Coupe is a classically styled car that hasn't really dated (in my opinion) and will always get admiring glances.

p.s. not "having a go", just making a point

I couldn't agree more

Kiltbill probably has more than cold feet reading this thread.
I imagine he's brought his boy a Toyota Avensis and given him couple of grand with strict instructions to find a girlfriend!

Not sure people give me admiring glances anymore, they actually think there goes a man that used to have money and a social life but now he owns a coupe...

Thanks for that. This was back in 2000, and it is really what put me off. The driving experience totally lived up to the hype. I wonder if it changed at some point or whether I should be wheeled out onto the lawn with a cup of Cocoa and a blanket?

Cold feet are over I think, I think he has decided this is the car for him. Not easy trying to buy one though!

Joe one of the members on here, has been trying to look at a car for 2 days now, seems like maybe the seller is more unreliable than the car! However he may have his reasons, so will wait and see. Joe is going to give it one more look tonight.

Finally got a chance to sit down and post, have been reading with interest though. Firstly, thanks to everyone for the great help, advice and discussion. Its very appreciated!

As mentioned still keen on getting a coupe, although I may now be terrified it will break down every time I go for a drive hehe!

don't worry, that never goes away! Welcome to the forum as well

We all have that feeling, you're not on your own.

I find it's best to worry, things are less likely to go wrong somehow if you're worrying. BUT, if they do, you've worried so much you already know what to do about it!

Get the coop, enjoy the coop, treat the coop well and she'll reward you plenty.

Can men who drive a Toyota Avensis get girlfriends ?
More chance with a broken coupe me thinks.

thats the thing alongs if you get someone that knows what there looking for to go see the car with you/for you it should turn out ok.

getting joe to have a look for you was a very wise move, he knows where all the bad spots are and tell tell signs ect ect

I've had my 20vt for just over 2 years and so far I have spent on:-

- 4 reconditioned original 20vt alloys plus my old knackered alloys PX'd towards the cost
- 4 new tyres
- new clutch slave cylinder
- new left-side windscreen washer valve
- new PRV
- new vacuum hose
- 2 new rear wheel bearings (failed MOT on these)
- new sump plug
- new drivers side wishbone

£1000 odd on the above over 2 years.

Still alot needs doing in the next couple of years (shocks are tired and need replacing at some stage after 90000 miles, cambelt needs doing next year, new clutch would be ideal but still works fine, probably needs a new thermostat, don't they all?)

Probably £1500 still to go to get it all sorted.
But as I will be selling it this year at some stage, that will be for another enthusiast to sort out if they care enough.
They need £500 quid a year maintenance minimum. This is my 2nd old coupe and the first one was exactly the same on maintenance.