RIP LE 1143

Well, my car has died.

Whilst having a spirited drive to get my car rolling roaded, the aux belt has snapped and taken the cambelt out.

The person behind me said there was a massive flame, lots me smoke and then bits of belt flew off.

The car is currently being towed home by the AA.

Gutted is not the word considering the time and money i have put in to get that car how i wanted it.

Got some tricky decisions coming up now.

Om my god fella

And i thought i was the only one having a bad week.

Looked a really nice car aswell.

Take your time think carefully

Bad luck Matt gutted for you.
Keep it alive!!!! Flea has an engine for sale doesn't he??

Bloody hell Matt sorry to hear that mate

Have a chat with Joe.

..or adam6900.

Ah crap,sorry to hear that Matt . At least it's only an engine to replace and not a car.

Hope you can get it sorted out.

Baz

Gutted for you, it's not dead yet though!

Always fancied swapping an engine, let me know when you pick one up and i'd be more than happy to help.

gutted for you matt, this car was set up so well and sounded so good - up to you now fella but i know i'd be wanting it back where it belongs, back on the track and back on the road - chin up mate...

Buy the engine flea is selling quick!

Just thought, time to go forged internals maybe?

Gutted by news Matt.....MC Mike was telling me how well your car went too not long ago. Surely this cannot mean RIP?

Gutted for you but "been there, done that" and still have the oily t-shirt! Oh, and Project Jigsaw lived again thanks to Joe supplying an immaculate engine so I know what I'd be doing......get on the 'phone and get in touch with Joe and/or Flea regarding a replacement lump PDQ!

Remember, it's only money, lack of food/drink for the next two months is a mere formality!

Very sorry to read you,r bad news Matt.Good luck with getting the coupe sorted.I know i will see you at Spa mate.

Sorry to hear this Matt, as Stan said I've been there done that too, get yourself another engine... you know it's the right thing to do

Sorry to hear the bad news Matt

Matt I'm sorry man. What bad times we are having...
Wow...
Mate, if you keep her alive (which to should) I'm willing to come and help you build her again!
It's a good tme now to drop the block out, re-build and strip the car and cage it!

Sorry again mate!

Really gutted for you man, that is pretty much my perfect coupe (colour combo etc) PLEASE don't break it up...

this is not the end, it's just a new beginning....
We can rebuild her, better, stronger, faster
Bionic Coupe!!

Feel for you mate

unlucky bud

Matt - really gutted for you
I was there myself back in June due to the ****ing coolant ****ing hose of instantaneous ****ing death :mad

Went for a brand new engine from Steve at Alt Autos fitted by Roger at Power Italia.

Hope you can get her back on the road soon.

news Matt. Hope you can get it sorted asap.

MattM - sorry to hear of your news - at the moment you will certainly feal that all is lost - how ever I can assure you that over time you will look forward and start making plans - a lot of guys on the forum have been as you are now, myself included.

It would seem that there are a lot more DIY guys and far more poeple with parts that can help, take your time and try to go have a pint or two to take your mind off it and get refreshed.

All the best.

Matt - sorry to hear about this. You may only need a top end rebuild + replacement of valves. Have a good think about what your options are before you do anything. If you still like the car then hold onto it - even if it means buying a banger for the short term.

I think that Barbz is still doing modified aux belt pulley's from Dubai. Everyone should have one so that if the aux belt goes it does not go into the cambelt.

I think he's had more than a couple of pints by now Hanny

It's a bitter pill to swallow when a belt lets go and nukes the engine. Been there, done that. In fact, I am finally going to try and put an end to this misery. I have on my own car, but I will roll this out now as it's a "preventable" disaster.

I hope you feel it's worth rebuilding Matt. There is even more potential in your car with that turbo... Spa won't know what has hit it if we pull this one off

Thanks for all the kind comments from everyone.

I'm going to do a lot of forum searching and stuff to try and find my best options.

Cash is tight at the moment though, and honestly i don't have a clue where to start?

Specialists are all miles away and getting the car to one is not going to be cheap on its own.

I want a forged rebuild but not sure i can afford/justify it.

Its not want i want to do, but financially the most sensible thing to do would be break the car. I'm not very sensible though!

Very sorry to hear this Matt - I hope you find a way to get the silver slayer up and running soon mate.

Can you not find a place to store it and get a cheap runaround until you can get it back on the road ?

Baz

I have somewhere to store it, i use a van for work and i'm insured on R gertrudes car, so transport isn't an issue really.

Even though i can get around, i hate not having the car working!

How hard is an engine change? I can do all the hard work, removing manifold, turbo, exhaust, bumper etc etc Then i guess its just lifting the engine out. How hard can it be!?

Hi Matt sorrry to here the bad news.

I can get the use of a car trailer if needed and have access to a engine hoist.

Im in halifax not too far from you .

Fantastic, thanks siloman, that might be a god send!

You any good at swapping engines?

Oh gutted for you Matt

You have a duty to get your Ferrari slayer back to Spa next year

Bob

Took one out of 16vt some years back 20vt sounds fun to me

Alls not lost yet

I'll come give you hand Matt might not be that good at fitting engines but I make a good cuppa.

Just read this, Matt. Sorry to hear about it

Hope you manage to get it sorted ok (and that it is just a top end rebuild that's needed).

Can't believe there's another thread like this, mine was so, so, so close to the same fate, it doesn't bear thinking about. Does everyone agree how heartening it is that there's all the offers of help from other members? With a bit of teamwork chap, it'll be back...it's all just part of Italian car ownership.

The engine comes out from underneath, you lift the front of the car up (if doing it on the driveway like me, and that's the fun bit!). There is a how-to guide and plenty of people who have done it and can offer advice.

Out if interest Matt when were the belts last done? Always make me nervous reading these horror stories (on Halloween too!!)

Matt, I'm willing to come up to drop the engine out / fit an engine with you!

You need to get that animal on the road once again!

Just think while the engine is out you can make the engine bay mint!

Thankyou to everyone for offers of help and advice, i'm sure you'll all be getting PM's soon!

I have found a good cheap engine and i might tackle the engine change myself-with help.

Thanks again, the only reason i'm going to fix it is because of the club/forum. Without this it would be a gonner!

Cambelt wasn't due for a year and a half and was nowhere near the mileage interval. I think the aux belts were done about 2 years ago. Definitly a good idea to change them regular!

Arrghh that make me feel worse?!?
Do you think the Mods had any effect on this?

Oh yeah, blame us again!

No i don't think it was the mods. I have been running without an undertray for a few weeks as mine fell off. There could lie the issue

Not really an under tray is not the cause. It's just bad design.
Been looking at mine this morning and there need to be something there.

Any one got a pic of the barbz mod??

Matt,

Really sorry to hear about this

Now you have drunk yourself into a stupor it is time for the move forward.

I can come up with Marco if need be to lend a hand, we can get her back up and running. She is not aloud to go quietly!

Nick

gotta love the help offered on this forum, there's no way this coupe can die with all this goodwill matt!! anyway, you're lending me a helmet at spa so you have to get it running and come along...

The help offered has been amazing. Thanks so much to everyone.

Don't worry Steve, i'll be at Spa!

Right 3 hourish drive, leave at 6 get there for 9, go home at stupid o'clock in the morning.... Sounds
good to me!!!
NICK 6am means 6am... Not 7/8 lol

lol - where theres blame theres a claim!!

Matt, sorry to hear this, but i can see you have idea's going around already with regards to getting the car going again. Forged route would be a good idea in the long run, but only you can decide on that

Chin up and maybe see you in the 400+ club

Well ...

Okay even I cannot find an excuse to cover that event

Ah Matt, gutted for you! I've been there as well and its a horrible feeling.

You've got some big and expensive decisions to make. I know everybody is saying get it back on the road, but at the end of the day its you and your wallet that has to go through it so make sure its the right decision for you!

The only way im going to be able to get this car back on the road is if i swap the engine myself.

I would love to have the funds to go forged but having just bought my first house, i simply don't.

My plan is to get a new (2nd hand) engine, make sure everything is good on it (i.e, oil cooler, coolant hose of death, CAMBELT! etc) and get it fitted my self, with some (Lots) of help from fellow fccukers.

Thanks so much for all the comments, i really appreciate it

also Matt, it may be a good idea to find/ make a modifyed pully!!!

also, you will have MANY spare's!!!
tools waiting Matt!
also thinking about your luck ive decided to keep and fix mine!
going fopr the 350bhp mark now!

also, when you do the engine swap... can i buy the blown engine off you please?

Marco you can have the blown engine if you fancy giving me a hand!

Modified pulley would be a tremendous idea. Is it just Barbz who did/does them?

yes Barbz does them but if some one can get us a pic or some thing to work from im sure i can whip up a couple for us and may be do a group buy on them!

might be worth a post on the tuning section!

What is this modified pulley?
How does it look, any pics?

Group Buy on modified Pulleys! I have a cam belt change coming up soon, an ideal time to fitted a modified pulley!

G

Definitly a good idea, would need to be perfectly machined and balanced though i would imagine. I would recommend it for anyone changing belts soon, it isn't a nice experience!

Didn't Flea say: "It's a bitter pill to swallow when a belt lets go and nukes the engine. Been there, done that. In fact, I am finally going to try and put an end to this misery. I have on my own car, but I will roll this out now as it's a "preventable" disaster."?

Sounds like he already has an answer to this problem?

Yes I have, and the modified pulley is not it as I still managed to bend 20 valves using one!

i threw away 3 modded pulleys a few months back, simply lack of demand.

They can be made at low cost, but they dont guarantee cambelt protection if the aux belt fails, they just offer more protection.

Agree with rog.

I had one of Barbz pulleys, but its just a pulley with an outter lip added maybe 3-4cm max. It will reduce the chance of taking it out, but its not a prevention of this.

Only way you could prevent fully would be with a enclosed section to the pulley, but the cover wouldnt allow this i don't think?

Ross

I was thinking of a plate next to the cam belt cover to stop it happening.
I really need to look into it to see what's possible!

The ps belt doesnt snap, it derails.

Fitting guides (giant washers) to the pulleys is a better idea, is not impossible to do either.

The acceleration in the lower gears (especially on modded coupes) is so savage that the belt cannot hold on and slips off.

I'm not all THAT technical, but what would be involved in changing the setup to a chain? (You may start laughing now.)

It was a very hard acceleration where it went. Big flame and then BOOM!

This is why you need to get it rebuilt, just listen to it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=077ua2Tpt9c

Cheers Paul, makes the ball ache seem worth it!

No probs Matt the offer is still there I'll make the tea

and i said ill make the coffe

I found a pic of the pulley in my Coupé folder .

Personally the first thing I did was to cut off that TDC marker which is attached to the timing belt cover and sticks out over the belt. At least it gives it more of a chance for the belt to fly past the cover rather than rip it off .

Baz

I'll clean up the mess

Why laugh, Klaas? It's a very sensible question and one I've considered off and on for years... bear in mind the alleged reason for using belts is quietness from the engine, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't also cheaper. I've been thinking about the 16 with the more fragile belt, of course.

You'd need to replace the cam pulleys with toothed wheels to suit the chain, the tensioner idler, the crank pulley, and anything else it goes around - water pump, balance shafts etc. (I'm not that familiar with the 20).

You'd probably need to replace the tensioner assembly anyway with some sort of hydraulic device, and you'd have to arrange some lubrication for the chain. A sneaky designer might come up with some way to drive the tensioner from oil pressure and drip feed onto the chain - but you'd also need to scavenge the oil back again, so that might need a better seal on the cam cover unless you wanted a total loss system.

The system would probably be narrower than either the 16 or 20 belt, which would give scope for better packaging (the cam chain on the similarly sized Nissan 1.8 turbo I used to own wasn't much thicker than a bicycle chain, though it did require changing due to stretch over a hundred k or so).

Snag is, there's a lot of expensive engineering to manage before you get it working. Not impossible, but probably not financially feasible unless you've got one of the last three engines in existence, or you just happened to have an engineering works in your back yard. It's not an amateur project, I fear.

But if anyone comes up with a DIY kit for the 16, I'd like one, please! (And for the 20vt, when/if I get one.)

You've hit the nail on the head Neil, it would be the lubrication of the chain that could present the biggest issue. Trying to get an oil seal around the crank and ensure an oil tight seal around the cover would be incredibly difficult.

There will be a way of reducing the risk of the belt debris being dragged into the cam belt assembly and I would love to see a decent solution to the problem because it happens too frequently and is definitely a design flaw that should never have been allowed off the drawing board.

A chain would be noisy, and as stan says a pain to lubericate.

The pulley and tensioner just need guiding.

I did start this a couple of years back, but nobody wanted to shell out +£50 for modded bits, so i gave up.

£50? I'll sponsor you.

Bike chain doesn't need as much lubrication? Also, it should be possible to have a piece of plastic moulded between aux and cambelt. Maybe something else... we're all looking at protecting the cambelt, but wouldn't it be possible to machine the pistons to make sure the valves don't touch?

This might also help:

Considering the cost of a cambelt replacement is £400+ anyway, an extra £50 to save this kind of damage is a no-brainer IMO, I'd pay it every time..

it's not just the belt - if the aux belt goes then it a few quid to fix.

If i goes into the cambelt when it goes then it's time for a top end rebuild + some new valves, AND and new cambelt + aux belt.....a lot more than £400.

£50 , I never heard about that. I can't believe that people were not keen at that price.

If there was a 99% certain way to eliminate this problem I would happily pay several times that figure.

I remember having an Escort RS 2000 and im sure that had a chain.

I wonder if a grease chamber could be made,so that the chain would pass through it,collecting grease as it goes.
It could have a grease nipple as a top up device.
Or is it all to agricultural?
I worked on Catapillars for years you see.

My Alfa 164 was chain driven

How was it lubricated Paul?

Haha, sorry that made me laugh. Childish side of me I think!

Not sure to be honest Joe didn't have the car long as it got wrote off.

Oh yes... Go on

A van put me in the barrier on the A500 at 70mph not good

ouch!

Bikers often fit "Scottoilers" to lubricate there bike chains to reduce wear and tear. It simply drips oil directly onto the chain and you can adjust the frequency of the drip. The downside is you engine bay would be covered in oil!!

I really don't think there is any need to consider a chain though, much easier to have someone make up a guard of some sort or a modified pulley as already in use by some people.

The simplest solution is often the best!

Yup! Just drop in a Jap chain-driven, 4 pot, normally aspirated engine instead. Paranoia solved at a stroke!

Nissan 120Y A series! Sixty-five tiny japanese ponies, provided you don't bother with fan, alternator, water pump, or clutch... got a chain at the end, though!

I'm wondering what the exact layout is; where exactly is the cambelt visible? Is there no cover for the bottom section of the route? I can't find a decent end-on picture (even in the manual) of the cambelt.

Oh yes! The 120Y engine would be perfect in the coupé, well, on the downhill sections anyway!

The issue is the clearance between the crank pulley and the casing: there is a gap there which almost encourages the debris to collect around the crank and feed itself into the cam belt.

I've got the bottom end of the 20v that let go in my car sitting in the garage and I keep meaning to have a look at the problem and see how easy it would be to fabricate a plate that reduces the gap.

As Baz says above, a positive step is to remove the TDC pointer from the cover, as it seems to serve no useful purpose anyway and is perfect as a goalkeeper for auxiliary belt debris.

and back in the land of being on topic......

matt, have you sourced an engine yet?

if not there's an entire car for sale on here for £150, engine only done 70k!

if you do raise the money, paul at motormech has a newly rebuilt one at £1000, but this does include a brand new crank (the last one in the uk) as opposed to refurbed/recovered.

Yeah i.ve sourced a good engine and i.ve got a pretty reasonable price for fitting it too.

I think the best thing to do is let the credit card take the hit and get it done proper rather than bodge it myself. Plus i'll get a receipt which may hold some value

good thinking imo - hope to see and hear the beast soon ( but enough of porkypaul.. ) and of course my lift around spa with you driving....

oh i wanted a good crack at that!
oh well guess ive got more time to spend on my motor!

Good luck with the new engine Matt!

hope it goes well!

Ah I see Paul like that was it...

Excellent news Matt keep us posted and let us know who/how/where/what...

Back of the line Proccy I am in the passenger seat around SPA first... You can go in the back

hmmm, well i'll go in the front with marco then.....

yer lashes....proccy will ride shot gun!

probelm is, Matt's coupe court me up VERY quickly at AGM...

that poor scooby

Nice one Matt .

Baz

Ah yes that was hilarious... excellent memories.

Begbie on the radio were moving over Matt is following. vrooom, woosh... And the sound of thunder as Matt joined the fold..

memories which one day will soon be re-lived!!

who's are the gay very useful radios, and could we borrow them for belgium...

I've started putting plans into place now. The engine will be getting new coolant hose of death, braided oil cooler and cambelt done while its out. Add that to the clutch and turbo which were done earlier in the year and it *should* be a fairly headache free couple of years in front.(i really hope).

Thanks again for the comments and offers of help, they have contributed more than anything in keeping this car alive!

Oh swing Proccy

The radio's were bought by me. They were excellent really, on the way up with me and Marco blabbing on. Then in the convoy to the hotel finally on the way to Motormech and Gaydon.

Some good conversations were had. They were especially vital in trying to keep the pack together when Mr Mike blazed off having a biggest willy competition with a Focus.

Which for the record he won buy a few miles

I am not sure if they can be taken to Europe due to licensing and use of the frequencies etc. Will need to ask my brother.

Good old boys aren't we...

Excellent Matt

proper rs2000's eg mk1 and mk2 had a pinto and that's a cambelt

the soft dull mk5 and mk6 had a chain driven 16 valve 2 litre

Well done Matt Glad you have it all sorted out with your car.

Yes nice one Matt - Keep them Bella Steel LE's running

Matt, so sorry to here the bad news.. hope it all works out for you.. The car is worth sorting

Again hope you get it sorted

tom

Eh what did I missed

Not been on here for a while so firstly; Matt I'm so sorry to hear that this happened - I know the heartache (and headaches) you went through getting this to how you wanted it (including a full day (twice) at Dyno Demon with the Unichip). On a seperate note;



^^^ What's going on here? Where's the old Matt gone who'd've lashed everything together with zip ties muttering "ah, it'll be reet"?

go on matt,thats the spirit pal!

That is what I was thinking

I did try to reconstruct the cambelt using cable ties and some insulating tape but unfortunately it snapped again!

how are things coming along mate?

i plan to have mine on the road just before the track day in January!

i have loads going on at the momment with mine! the nightmare has just begun!!!

I have purchased the new engine which is being shipped straight to jonnybravoturbo who is doing the work for me. He is hopefully coming to fetch the car later on this week.
When the new engine is in, i'm going to take it down to flea to check the map and maybe rolling road it.
With a bit of luck it should be back on the road before the end of the month. Sweet!

Great stuff Matt you'll have it back in time to come the Donington meet on the 29th

Hope so Paul!

Glad your putting it back on the road Matt

Cheers Adam, hopefully it will last long enough to go round Spa!

Optimistic then Matt

As ever.

Nice one matey - hope it all goes smoothly with JBT and Flea.

Matt, when you take it down to flea give me a shout i need to let flea work his magic with mine also!

I am a pessamist, but at least i'll never be dissapointed!

Cheers Craig, nice to see you back.

Marco, i'll let you know, i haven't spoke to flea yet as i don't know exactly when the car will be ready, but when i do i'll pm you

thanks mate, im in the same boat as you, while its raining - im not working lol

glad a new engine is on its way to you!

It lives!!

Jonnybravoturbo got it started up today and has put 30miles on the clock with no reported issues.

On the phone he said "it goes well don't it!"

I'm over the moon.

The car has had a new engine, new belts, new clutch, new s/s braided oil cooler and all new brake lines fitted. As well as the new turbo, coilovers, and downpipe earlier on in the year.

So with a bit of luck i'll be driving her again soon!

Just to add, John has been absolutely excellent. A few problems have occurred along the way, and John has put in the extra hours and effort to get this car back on the road. Can't reccommend him enough. He knows a hell of a lot about the car and i will definitly use him again(hopefully that will get me a few quid off the bill!! )

All in all, i'm happy today.

Nice one Matt,glad all is going well mate.

Yeah touch wood Joe, i haven't been blessed with the best of luck recently though

Sweet - nice one!

Even treated myself to a new bucket seat and harness today, all ready for the Mallory Park trackday hopefully.

Great news, Matt

great news matt - bet you're glad you never broke it now

Great news Matt, look forward to seeing it in action again! Also good to hear that there seems to be another Coupe specialist on the scene.

Great news mate!!!
look forward to seeing that animal soon!!

is this one Standard Matt...or is that a silly question?!

Thanks for the comments again guys, you've really kept my morale up!

Nello - no it isn't standard, its running around 350bhp (estimate, may be more, may be less). I'm right on the limit of the standard engine. If i wanted anymore power i think i would have to go forged for certain. The reason i didn't get a forged rebuild is simply due to the cost. I just can't afford it. I can do 3 engine swaps for the same price as a proper forged rebuild, so i'll risk it. It'll be reet!

That engine just had a wake up call

Great news Matt.

This feels every bit of 350bhp.Seriously quick car.

Just got your brake pipes to sort out and it will be ready for you.

Brilliant John. Thanks again. You've done a great job.

You havent got the bill yet

gotta love mate's rates......

Well done Matt,

Saving an LE priceless,

Driving (abusing) priceless

Admiration from us lot priceless

JBT bill worth every penny to keep you in coop club

Look forward to hearing you overtake me ! ! !

Nice one Matt

Trev

Hopefully my LE 119 will soon be keeping up with Matts coupe when i get round to redoing its internals,and getting it over to Leighton.
I will be well happy if it pulls like yours does.
LE 1143 is possessed.I was actually a little scared.

And it lives again.

Excellent News Matt!!

Yes, excellent news

Hi guys!! You really have got to give john a big high five!! Because i got my car back from him on friday,after haveing a full service,slave cylinder,and a new thermostate.And i have got to say the car was great before,but feels even better now thanks to john!! He really does know is stuff and is a fantastic bloke...!! I am sorry to say that i saw matts car in a sorry looking state on one ramp and he had another forum members coupe on the other ramp!! He told me when i was there that he had to get both of these cars done and was set to work straight through the night into saturday morning,saying to me that he would just grab a couple of hours in the office if he needed it!!!

Now come on thats dedication if i ever saw it,plus that is not the first time he as told me he has had to work through the night!! I am glad matt that your car is now up and running again mate you took it to the right bloke thats for sure!!!!

james...

Great stuff Matt - I reckon this will be the Coupe to beat at Spa next year, excepting Sparcos beast of course.

Cheers Mike, don't forget that Leighton is there too though! And there were some bloody quick french cars there as well last year.

I'm picking the car up on Thursday, and going down to flea to check the map and rolling road it.

In the mean time John is fitting the uprated pulley. He has also welded up a crack in the manifold and replaced a leaking coolant hose.
He has done a really thorough job, and thoroughly tested every thing. Everything that was knackered has been repaired so hopefully it will be mechanically pretty good.

Nice one, good to hear! Where did you get the uprated pully from?

Cheers Johna, I got the pulley from jonnybravoturbo, see the group buy section

Be interesting to see you RR results.....

Just when you think everything is going ok, life comes back and kicks you in the !

Just had a phone call from John, and the turbo is making an alarming noise. Sounds like the blades are hitting the housing.

With it being a ball bearing turbo, it is not simply a case of a refurb. It will need a brand new core which aint cheap.

I've just spent a frickin fortune on this car, i feel like blowing it up.

Really can't afford it, if i hadn't just paid for a new engine, i think i would scrap it. AHHHH

ah that's sh1tty mate, very sorry to hear that - was hoping to see a post about how great it was running

Anyone wanna buy LE 1143!?

Nightmare Matt! Buy the 3076 that Marco has for sale! Hope you get it sorted!

If you can move the steering wheel to the other side I'll have it.

, aint it!

See if we can get a discount for buying 2 turbos at the same time technics!?

sorry to hear about that Matt - ATP turbo will certainly give you good prices.

ATP are in America aren't they? i was hoping for a really quick turn around. They quote something like 1160 dollars

I've had a quote for a GT28RS . 86 of £800. Cheapest i've found so far is from http://www.wholesale-turbos-direct.com/

yes, they are.

Yeah, im up for that. Worth a try. Pref an RSR, otherwise ill settle for an RS. Not sure what housing would be best for me, .64 or .86? Just to let you know i have got one or two people on the case for me too, keep in touch.

Technics, i'm after a RS .86 or i'd be happy with a RSR . Let me know if you find any bargains

I need a gt 30 rsr as well so i will be up for a discount for 2 Matt if you can sort that.
And the least i can do is fit it for free chap.

Shouldnt that be 3 then JBT.....

Why dont we just try and start a Group Buy on GT Series turbos, there was one a while back, look on page 4 of the GB, it was sorted by a chap called Grant.
There is already 3 of us here without even trying, even if we can just get 1 more person involved I think we can start driving the price down slightly.

Thing is Xmas time isnt the best, but im still going to try and ring a few suppliers over the next couple of days, see what they can do and if they can leave it open till end of Jan or even Feb, just to give time for more people to get involved.

What do you think guys?

Sounds good technics but i need mine as soon as humanly possible. I'll try contact a few places too

Still, if someone can do it from now and end it in a couple of months, you can still order it asap, but also it will be open to others for some time after aswell.

Could even have a quick count up of who would want and can afford one by the end of Jan or Feb, if we can get 5,6 or 8 then the price will go down further, we hope, but you can still order your right away.
Ive got to be honest, ill be looking at Jan, unfortunately.

Maurizio.

Well im in no rush for mine.
What sort of discount we looking for a gb then.
I have been quoted 790+vat from Mark at cr turbos.
Thats for a 3071r,

As much as poss, but still working on it.

God matt I feel so sorry for you....

You have pm!

do your best chap.
Like i say im in no rush as im waiting for Fleas stage 2 head in the new year.
FOllowed by a rebuild of the bottom end so wont be until march april that im due.But dont mind having one before.

Cool, im looking around Jan, maybe even Feb.
Fingers crossed.

Sorry to hear this, your looks and sounds good according to the spec and pictures. Hope you get it sorted soon. Happy motoring.

Thankyou Mawv.

It will be very well specced once it is finally up and running.

I'm booked on a trackday in January so it has to be done for then.

I really want to take this car to Spa as well.

I might look at a change next year though, i need some reliability

Can't believe this Matt, I'm still willing to bet someone will lend you what you need to get going again. See you at Spa, 400bhp'd-up!

Keep at it Matt.When its done ,you will forget you,r woes mate.

You'll be right, it'll be mechanically new by the time you've done all this Matt, she'll be a good'n then.

Gareth

Well, I was booked in to see Flea on Saturday for a remap/rolling road. However, i have been unable to source a turbo in time. I tried a couple of places who, would all, have had to order the turbo in. I used a place who thought they could get it in time, but they haven't.

Unfortunately, John is taking a well deserved christmas break as of Friday. So, i'm going to be without my car until after christmas.

I'm gutted, want the old girl back now

Sad news mate.

Are the internals standard Matt?

Yes they are stevo

Turbos off.The new one will be on tomorrow once i have checked the oil supply is good,
so LE 1143 will live again .

Yey!!!!!

Good work John. I'll wait for the call of confirmation before i book my train ticket though. Haven't had the best of luck with this car so i wont jinx it

Matt, when do you plan to go see flea?

Not sure Marco, i was hoping to go on Saturday but unfortunately he is booked up. I'm going to try get a day off work next week and take it down. Need to do it sharpish though because i'm on a track day at end of month!

Oh yer, forgot about the track day!

im off in Feb, im skint untill then!
any luck with the brakcet for that bucket seat?

Waiting on a piece of aluminium to arrive, and a stress plate and eye, for the harness.

good news on your car matt, glad to see she'll run again.

am i still ok to borrow your spare helmet for spa?

Yeah your more than welcome Steve.

nice one matey, appreciate that - and that appreciation will be demonstrated in beer tokens...

All done.
Running sweet,had issue with a coil but sorted now.
Drove it tonight and its nice and smooth.

And this is the first Coupe to have a Jbt bottom pulley.

Picked up the car this afternoon and it is running lovely!

John has done a great job and at a very cheap price considering the work which has been done, he even had it valeted for me. Thanks very very much John.

So, LE 1143 has had;

New engine (2nd hand)
New oil cooler with braided hoses
New clutch
New GT28RS .086 A/R Turbo
New Lambda sensor
New custom built bottom pulley
New cambelt
New aux belts
New short shift kit
All new brake pipes
Replacement sump

As well as all the suspension, brake, and engine mods which i have previously done.

Really chuffed with the car now. Hopefully i will get a good length of trouble free motoring now!

I'm booked in with Leighton on the 21st for Re-map and dyno which i'm looking forward to, and then a track day at Mallory Park.

touch wood for you matt that this lasts years now. you deserve some luck matey

got there in the end, really pleased for you.

Good to hear its back on the road!

Well done mate, good feeling getting it back all tight and smooth. Good luck with it, interested to see you Flea/RR results.

Nice to see it back Matt

Congrats mate!

Might see you at mallory!!

Wow, what a list!

Enjoy the car, perhaps keep away from the track for a bit mate.

I'm really impressed with all the work you've had done. Think it's the steel grey's cause mine needed loads as well.

Great stuff Matt

Well done Matt you deserve some good fortune now for sticking with it.

Hope you get many miles of exciting driving with no more trouble.

Trev

Pleased for you Matt, looking forward to checking it out one day at an event

like spa...

Glad you got the Coupe sorted. Happy motoring.

Thanks guys, really appreciate the kind words

I managed 5 days trouble free motoring

Great news, look forward to seeing it at Mallory! Hopefully we don't need to invest in snow tyres.

Yeah, not looking good for that event really

That's really great news mate, so glad you bit the bullet and saved this coop as it's a lovely example...

Great news Matt!

See you in a couple of weeks (providing I managed to get my clutch fixed )

Sorry to hear the news about your turbo Matt

u killed my old car !!!

no!!! what's happened now ffs? matt's more unlucky than me, and that's saying something!

My brand spanking new £900 turbo has seized absolutely solid.

I set off down to leighton at 5am this morning for mapping and dyno. At about 630 i lost all boost. I couldn't get any positive boost no matter what i did. Persisted down to leighton, and we checked the turbo. The wheel is stuck solid.

Managed to limp my way up to johnny. We started trying to find the reason for 2 turbo's being destroyed, on this engine.

Tested oil pressure to turbo from block, all good@4 bar on idle and around 8 bar on revs. Oil restrictor present, line not blocked, oil return fine, coolant fine.

John rang C R turbo's for any ideas they may have. They have said that the usual reason for a turbo seizing is incorrect balance. If it was an oil pressure issue it would cause smoke/noise.

So, have i just been unlucky and killed 2 roller bearing turbos? 1 brand spanking new and one had about 5k on it.

Very upset today. I'm truly at my wits end facing another £1000 bill after the £000's i've already spent replacing the engine and last turbo.

Feel a bit sick to be honest

What's the story on trying to claim on warranty for the turbo then? After all, it was professionally fitted.

where did you get the turbo from matt

Apart from the terrible luck your having Matt I can't understand why the supplier of the turbo does not replace as part of the warranty?

agreed - surely with johnny being a pro on these cars they have to take his assessment matt? i'd be putting this on their toes, and see their response - as far as it appears to me, this turbo was not fit for purpose if it was fitted correctly (and we know it was) and with what jbt found when you got there.

really feel for you matey after what you've been through with your car, but on this there should be something they can do...

Especially if it is due to being out of balance. Must be some warranty.

Shocking news, Matt ... very sad to hear this

But I agree with all the above, surely the turbo supplied must have been faulty? And it must be possible to diagnose this from the turbo?

I will definitly be trying to claim on warranty.

However, nearly every mechanically i have spoken to have had issues with turbo warranty's.

The ususal response is "it's an oil feed issue, therefore not covered on warranty."

At John's today i took photos of the pressure gauge hooked up to the turbo oil feed. I am also going to get a report done on the turbo by CR turbos, which will give the exact reason for it's failure.

All this should hopefully mean the warranty claim goes through a lot easier

Not sure what i'm going to do with this car now..... I will fix it, but am i ever going to be able to drive it again without being so paranoid i never get above 2k rpm?

Matt I really can't believe this. You new to get warrenty on that surley!!

Hope so Marco, certainly can't afford another new one.

This is crazy mate, lost for words.

jeez that's insane

Words fail me Matt!

isn't it?

Ever think your jinxed? - i do

Where did you get it from??

How could you trust the supplier again??
I hope you get warrenty, if not I think a trip down there is in order to "express" your anger.
I up for driving!!

Don't have much luck do you?! Thats really not good Hope the warranty comes good!

I don't really want to start a hate campaign against the supplier without proof, so i'll keep their identity to myself for now.

The turbo's come with a years warranty, but as i say, not as easy as it sounds to claim.

I'm sure most of tomorrow i'll be on the phone.

btw marco, you already know

Stay away from turbo's Insy!

Think you might be right Matt. Despite all the appeal of the power, reading this thread and Proccy's I'm thinking that my decision to stay with the 20V chariot was a wise one.

Nevertheless, the draw of the turbos is always strong, so I can fully understand where you're coming from.

Still cant believe this Matt.....
As for the turbo situation,they are a very basic design and 9 times out of 10 a failure is due to oil starvation.
However unusually in this case,the shaft has seized solid.
Great oil pressure as measured in 10 minutes of idling direct from the block,4 bar on idle rising when rpm raised,and 40-45psi measured after the restrictor pipe.

Rang Cr turbos and spoke to Mark who i use all the time for blowers.He said seizure is never due to oil starvation.
The bearings always collapse and cause excessive play followed by the blade to casing noise and smoke then no power.
I will remove the turbo in the week and Cr will take it away for an inspection and give me a full report.This will not void any warranty as they can do it without touching any fixings on the turbo.

A failure so soon would indicate in his opinion incorectly adjusted tolerances,balancing issue or a distorted shaft.

This for me is a concern as i have just purchased a turbo from the same source.So im hoping that these are genuine Garrett Blowers and not some cheap Chineese junk.

So we will see what hes got to say warranty wise first.
But not all is lost Matt,you did get to try your hands at some spannering,followed by a home cooked dinner and a drive home in a supercar....
Chin up mate,i will sort it for you.

what a bummer for the both of you....im sorry to hear it matt ,i know that sick feeling! it must be even worse when you go from happy excitement at the coming map results to the pit of dispair! im sure john will get to the bottom of it... as for the warrenty ;i know the said supplier will not want a bad name on the forum , particularly when continued business is only as good as your good name..if you see what i mean... so i cant see him not doing something..john has done loads of turbos and everyone knows he knows his stuff so there is only one course of action open to supplier really particularly when the oil pressures good and its looking like a fault from the way its given up...so dont worry it'll come good im sure....i hope you get it all sorted soon gents (particularly with my car is sat waiting!:))

and john dont be swapping turbos on me!

I can't believe this Matt! So soon after your bad luck with the belts!! Still its looking positive for your warranty claim, best of luck with that!!

Sorry to hear about this Matt - I hope that you manage to get this sorted under warranty - but as you say depending on where you got it from it could be difficult....

Not again

not again Matt

me dude, and i thought i had bad luck !!! I would not take no for an answer with ther builders of the turbo tbh mate, really hope it works out ok for you...

Really sorry to here about this Matt, After all you have been though and all the work thats gone in I cant honestly blame you for being a little upset!

I cant offer any advice so I just send my best wishes and hope for a speedy reply from the turbo specialist. The last thing you deserve is another fight

Good luck with this Matt,i go away for a couple of days and its all tits up for you again.Very sorry to read this bad news.

This car when running really is a beast.

I hate to adnmit it, but the kick in the back when coming on boost when Matt took me out at curborough was scary. A properly fast coupe.

Or was that just Matts driving?
Some say, he has birth mark shaped like the Pininfarina "F" on places you really dont want to see!

Matt.....keep with it mate......Just look at it!

Bad Bad news arrived today.

C R turbos have inspected my recently seized turbo, and their conclusion is that "It's a 100% oil feed issue".

The oil feed was pressure tested before the new turbo was installed. It was also tested, just after the turbo seized. It gave good results at 4bar on idle and around 8-9 when under revs.

So this leads us to believe that either;

1) The oil feed got blocked and starved the turbo of oil

2) There is an issue with the engine. Perhaps it's losing pressure at very high revs. Or there may be an issue with the 5th cylinder.

As the car has now destroyed 2 good turbos, i think it's probably the engine.

I cannot afford another new block, i cannot afford a rebuild of any kind.

Or do i risk it, get the turbo refurbed, and hope it was a blocked oil feed??

I think this car may be going to the big coupe scrap yard in the sky.

Any advice or ideas would be most welcome.

have you found any type of block in the oil feed to cause this?

have you found any reason for the 5th cyclinder to lose pressure?
(comp test or somthing like that?)

over all mate is a poop situation.

No, not found any blockage, there was a tiny bit of swarf when we took the feed off but not enough to block it.

Compression is fine. Must be something thats happening at high revs.

Think i'm going to get rid, had enough of this now

There comes a point..... Matt, I think this is yours mate.

Ill know ill get stood on for this but just take the LE back to almost standard, sell of the bits, get some of the money back and find another way to spend epic amounts of money, go take your self on a holiday bud, you deserve it

Matt - so very sorry to hear this.

What you have to decide is if you persevere will you have confidence in the car again?

Can you get to the bottom of the oil feed issue - and KNOW that you can sort it out?

If it's going to be off the road for a while then why dont you go and test drive a few possible coupe replacements and see if that process just brings you back to the 20VT - you may find that you think that it is time for a change?

I really feel for you - I've been through this when my 20vt engine died (though that was my fault), and now the RX has popped (despite me getting everything on the car spot on.)

If it's any consolation owning a high power 20VT is a lot less expensive than the Jap equivalent when things go wrong - but regardless you need to have a far higher maintenance budget than you would for a standard car.

Your LE is wonderful - and I hope it's not broken down and sold off in bits, but you have to think about what is the most practical solution for you.

Good luck and dont make a hasty decision.

Matt why don't you just get a second hand normal turbo for peanuts of some one from here. Bolt it on and run the car for a month or more. That should be a cheap way of trying to get some confidence back. If that turbo craps itself as well then clearly there is a problem and you have not spent several more hundred pounds finding out the really expensive way again.

Thanks people.

I think you have a very valid point suba. I don't think any amount of money can restore my confidence in this car. I would never be able to drive it again without worrying about it blowing up.

I have been looking at other cars a lot recently and cant really find anything within budget that ticks the same boxes the coop does.

My initial thoughts are to try and get hold of a mechanicaly sound coop with crap body work for around 1-1.5k. A hybrid turbo, few choice mods, stripped out with roll cage. All i use the car for is fun/track work.

Stevo, my downpipe and exhaust is custom made with a 5 stud flange for gt series turbos. So it would involve getting a new exhaust too. Good idea though and worth some thought

MattM the high oil pressure is to blame blocked valve (oil pump). Picture can help you http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/5825/oilpumpc.jpg .

That green one of your dads was a good one Matt! This car seems to be a bit of a cursed coop for you. Maybe getting it back to running well at standard and passing it on would be the best option, but only you can decide that. I'm still up in the air about what to do with mine to be honest, although everytime I come home and see it on the drive, I struggle to see how I could sell it.

I hope whatever you decide to do works out well, you've put a lot of effort into the car, it's a tough call either way.

Gareth

Who sold you the engien? If there is a problem with the oil feed or indeed the engien, can you not recover the cost of the work *and* the tubos against the parties involved.

With two mashed turbos, a report to say oil starvation its clear something isnt right with one of the parts you have been supplied.

Its not a nice job to have to pull people up on goods sold or work done, but it may be your only recourse

The engine was sold with no guarantee from a forum member.

The work was completed by John, but as he didn't know the engine, he can't guarantee it.

I'm pretty much screwed

Thanks for the info Kaci, but could too much oil pressure cause the turbo to seize?

Were you running the standard oil feed line Matt ?

Matt as you know i dont know much about the coupe,but is there some way of putting this engine on a stand still test to see what/where the oil problem is.Also what sort of job is it to change the oil pump? Good luck with this mate.
Here is a coop that looks promising.imo.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1997-FIAT-COUPE-20...=item3359c6965c

Oil pressure depends on many things. I do not see how the turbo will change the oil pressure. Pressure in the system is the same everywhere. The valve spring (in the oil pump) to determine what it is. I hope you understand me despite my bad English

I dont think so Joe, the oil feed has been tested when stood still, i think it would be nigh on impossible to test it under a full load.

Taffy - No, it is a braided oil feed with a restrictor on the end - this is also tested to be running at the correct pressure

I think so, thankyou very much

i can offer nothing useful matt other than to say how sorry i am to hear this, especially so soon after your other issues. i know how you feel, this coop of mine is now on borrowed time, and if she screws up one more turbo or set of belts she'll be scrap. there's only so much cash you can be expected to throw at this, and i've reached the end of big, unscheduled jobs. good luck matey

Yeah unfortunately this was the worst news possible.
I had a long chat with Mark at Cr turbos about the situation and were both not sure of the cause behind it when theres good pressure to the turbo.
Obviously my guage reads good oil pressure but its only measuring the resistance and not the flow.The prob may lie at higher revs and may also be with the engine itself.
Oil pressure before and after the restrictor was good.
But at the same time i cannot guarantee a issue in the future if another turbo is fitted,and personally i wouldnt feel confidence in it...
Be interesting to see the history behind the engine that was fitted.

I quickly read the topic Matt and definitely you have a Fiat with bad character. I love these cars. I'd love to have this car

Matt, Could it be that a couple of rip off Chinese copies have got into the UK supply chain?

That question was asked Pete, but C R reckon it is definitly genuine garett

matt i feel sorry mate..
the best thing would be is to get another turbo on the cheap bolt it on and put the car though it .. i have my old 200sx turbo which you can have i will have a look for you..

Terrible luck Matt, you just can't spend anymore on this engine without knowing whats going on.
Fingers crossed!

Matt - the issue with that option is that IMO getting a coupe to handle well on track takes a fair bit of money. If you want a track car there are plenty of options that I think are better, cost the same to buy, and wont need as much spent in maintenance.

Matt I don't run a restrictor on my coupe oil feed with a gt28rsr and it has never caused an issue. Why not ditch the restrictor?

I might be giving the car 1 last chance....... watch this space

I hope you do Matt after every thing you've been through.

i hope so too...........if you want an interest free loan for the turbo just ask. i'm not loaded by any means just prepared to help

Blimey Steve, that is extremely generous, thankyou. But don't worry, i have it covered.

Hopefully it will work, if it blows up again, it's going to get firebombed

Like your style Matt

no worries

if that happens be sure to invite us - it might turn into quite an inferno with yours and mine!!!

edited to say, have you seen how many "looks" this thread has had? what a very popular sequence of events for the casual bystander on the forum...

It's insured well

Shame i can't have a pound for every person who's viewed the thread - i might have enough to pay the bill then!!

guys if you are going to do it can you invite me too!!
3 is no longer a crowd!!!!

Matt, sounds interesting, can you share the light on what you got planned?
Sounds promising!!

hopefully it will get fixed this time

Well, i managed 4 months of motoring without an issue, took the car to Spa Francorchamps and after 3 laps this happened:



Coolant temperatures up to around 130degrees. Fortunately i had JBT in the car with me, who was keeping an eye on things, otherwise i would have carried on hooning after Flea!

We took the car down to the parking area and started to inspect things. The rear of the engine was red hot, and pressurised, whereas the radiator was still cool and un-pressurised.

1st ideas were a sticking closed thermostat, which are rare (i believe Nigel had this issue). Senny Dave, and JBT stripped the stat off and smashed a screw driver through it, in order to open it up. Put it back on, and i went out again.

This time i managed 1 lap before coolant temps hit 130degrees.

Very strange issue because the car performed fine during normal road driving. It sat ticking over in the pits for 20mins, fans kicking on and off and never got above 90. But as soon as it was on full chat for 3/4mins it boiled up.

Anyway, i drove the car back to England with no issue and let JBT take it to his garage.

I had pretty much written the car off, assuming a head gasket issue. JBT pressurised the block, did a sniffer test and a compression test, all passed fine. At this point i was thinking about a porous head or crack in the block.

Today however, good news (for a change);



Half of the waterpump blades have self imploded!

Good news, LE 1143 lives to fight another day

excellent news matt, very pleased for you mate

Well its an odd one but not uncommon. Is there a brass pump available for these? Was that pump done with the belts last time Matt? cant be more than three years old is it?

Great stuff Matt.

Brilliant news Matt!!

phew!

That must be a relief.
Were you able to find the bits of the pump that came off?

Thanks guys



Pump was not done along with cambelt. a serious oversight by myself, as i wanted to save money when the engine blew up.

There is definitly a morale to the story - Don't cut corners!

No, but i suspect they will have fizzled away

Might be worth fishing around in the hole on the left. If I remember right I got a few bits out of mine, but it was a while ago.

Cheers skinflint

Great stuff Matt - well pleased for you

Cheers Mike. Need to get on a track day now, to test the old trout

Not happy that you hosted a picture of my hand Matt.
But yes great news,had a good search for the bits but not in sight.

Was a relief when i saw the pump like that.
Had me scratching my head for some time as the flow on the coolant side was excellent on idle and increasing revs.

But the coolant in the engine itself rose dramatically when the engine was put under load.

Yet the side after the stat stayed relatively cold.


Have done a few pumps on the German cars for same issue but they boil up even on idle.


Not good that an inch of plastic was the difference between a lost weekend at spa though.

Took the car for a real spirited drive for about 10 miles and the temp never rose above 95 even in traffic.
Result.
Well done for sticking with it Matt.

Cheers John, couldn't have done it without you

Good news Matt and look forward to seeing you at Curborough

Top result Matt! I always get a warm feeling when guys with the name Matt get a stroke of good luck with their coupés

I bet you do

T you naughty naughty Girl! (well you started it!)

Good news, what a relief! Well done Matt & JBT

Mines back on the road hopefully next week matt so we will get some track time booked soon.

Great news Matt, hopefully you have a long period of trouble free motoring.

Excellent a good outcome really!

you know you can get water pumps with a brass impeller,

Ben

The plastic ipeller wheel on my old 2.8 Quattro became loose on the shaft. Car had zero water flow so couldn't even limp it home. I too didn't change the pump when I did the belt

This is another good lesson to show why we should always change a plastic water pump when having a cam belt done

Great to see that you'll be back Matt

Bob no??

You tight? I don't believe it!

This was the same as i had a few weeks back.

I have also had the thermostats fail as well.

I have never known such a stupid place to locate one.
Had to take the belts off,and the cam pulleys to get to it.
Which is always nice on a quad cam setup.
Even Audi didnt know where they were.
Lovely car to drive though.

Disaster has struck yet again!

It would appear the overheating issue was not resolved by the new waterpump.

I attended a track day at Oulton Park yesterday and the bloody car overheated after 3 laps.

I really am at my wits end, i think it is going to be the end for this car now.

The car drives perfectly on road, really really nice. I can run it all day on it's highest boost setting, and drive as hard as possible, and it is good as gold and doesn't get too hot.

However, when on a track and on constant hard boost and high revs it's getting too hot and boiling up.

It's had a new rad approximately 1 year ago, water pump is brand new, head gasket tested thoroughly, fmic cleaned,new expansion cap and it's still getting too hot.

I can't really afford (well i can afford it, but i dont really want to, considering what i have outlayed on it already this year) to throw loads of money at it to get it sorted. So i dont know what to do!?


Somebody make me an offer and take it off my hands!

ill give you a tenner matt,

joking aside, sorry about this mate, maybe time to start another project with a different coop.

sorry to hear this matt, i know exactly how you're feeling unfortunately

Sorry to hear this Matt

sorry to hear this bud

Really sorry to hear that Matt.

Matt do you use the Coop only on the track?

I'll answer this for Matt - no, it's mainly a (very fast) road car and a daily driver too I think.

EDIT: Sorry to hear about the latest mishap too Matt.

Have you tried replacing / flow testing all the coolant pipes?

Sounds to me like a partial blockage restricting the flow, I've seen similar issues on another car forum where it was overheating on track, changed all the pipes and problem solved. Maybe those plastic blades have worked themselves through the system and are hiding somewhere?

Yeah Matt as Matt says your due some luck. Perhaps the pieces are just stuck in the rad inlet.
Don't give up on the bugger just yet.

Oh dear!

I just read this entire thread with interest and a huge lashing of sympathy. So sorry to hear about your troubles Matt - can't really offer any more help than this.

I think I will keep my car completely standard (save for a chip). All these headaches just sound like too much pain to endure. I'm sorry it had to happen to you!

It has to be something fairly simple Matt as already alluded too, the cooling system is not that complex so if all other tests are coming back fine then it would suggest poor flow.

It has to be said Matt has suffered some very bad luck by all accounts Rudi, but for every troublesome Coupe like this there are twenty good ones just doing the business with good quality maintenance.

^ Agreed.

Matt sounds like a partial blockage, i'll buy you a beer mate when I see you.

I'm going to whip the radiator off tonight and see if there is anything obvious. But thanks for the support chaps

Chin up Matt, I would take off a pipe and stick a hose in the tank and flush the rad... Then flush the engine doing the same.. Just catch the water in a bucket so you can see if any thing come out.

It's got to be a silly block sone where!!!

Cheers mate, i'll give it a go.

Call me if you need a hand!!

For me the really positive thing here is that the vultures haven't started circling in case you decide to strip it back to standard.

By a process of elimination, there can't be much else to check out can there?

You've got a lot of support behind you Matt including some very knowledgeable "experts" but I can't begin to understand / appreciate your pain and frustration.

Really hope that you find the problem and that it's a cheap fix to sort.

Well, I stripped the radiator off tonight, and it is like new really.

I also ran water through the coolant system and checked coolant hoses and everything is fine.

I found no "bits" of debris or anything which could cause a blockage.

So, heres my theory;




Circled in the above photo is the route which my braided oil cooler takes. As can be seen it runs right across the 3" downpipe. It is covered in heat wrap and there is a heat shield there too, but when on boost for a long period, that downpipe is going to be circa 900 degrees hot.

What are the chances of the oil getting soooo hot, it's having an adverse affect on the engine/coolant and boiling it up??

This is the only thing left to try really.

Opinions please

I doubt it to be honest, the water would only be exposed to that heat source for a fraction of a second as it rushes by, and couldnt be the difference between boiling up and staying normal. If it did have an effect it would be to raise the temperature by a couple of degrees overall but it would still stay stable.

Simply running water through the pipes is no good, you need to replicate the high pressure and high flow rate that will be happening on track, and you cant check the insides of all the pipes without taking them all off and poking stuff through or cutting them open. I just hope the blockage is not in the waterways of the engine block itself, that could be a tricky one.

As i dont have an oil temperature gauge in the car (it's a really handy voltmeter ) i have no idea what kind of temps the oil is seeing.

My theory was that if the oil is heating the block, that may in turn heat the coolant to above the tolerances which it would normally work within, i.e outside the tested coolant system parameters

Matt I haven't had time to read all of this thread but when the head was off last was it pressure tested?

Yeah the head has been pressure tested. All the cylinders were pressure tested to nearly twice as much as what it would normally see. It's also been sniffer tested, the coolant is fine, there's no smoke, so i'm reasonably confident it's not the head.

Saying that i suppose there is a chance it could have become pourous or a minute crack which only shows when it's red hot, but i think its doubtful.

It's just the way you describe the issue is only apparent when either on the track or after long boost periods, it gives me the impression of a cracked head.

Ah gotcha now, I think that's even less likely though. When everything heats up the oil is always the last thing to get hot, and the last thing to cool down afterwards. It basically follows the coolant temperature by about 5 minutes. For the oil to do that it would have to reach such high temperatures that it would be far too thin to do any lubricating... IMHO.

Totally agree with you Matt, and with you Joe, but all other avenues have now been explored.

My plan is to fit an oil temp gauge, hoon around like a mad man and see if the oil is getting hotter than it should. If it stays normal then god knows

If the oil was going up to 130C+ you would definitely see a big drop in oil pressure. The cooling system is where you need to be focussing your attention.

Tell you what, I may be breaking a very nice Coupe at the end of the month, was going to fix it up with new big end bearings but it looks like I'll be buying my old Coupe back instead.

You can have the head, the thermostat, the water rail, and all the coolant pipes for free, which should be a major step in the process of elimination.

That is very kind of you Matthew, thankyou very much.

When on high revs, actual oil pressure is around 11bar (ish i think) So the oil could heat and thin down a lot before any oil pressure drop was noticed on the gauge.

Hmmmm, saying that i had 1.5 bar oil pressure whilst the car was overheating, so perhaps that does eliminate that, but i'm using some gulf competition oil which is rated for engine with over 1000bhp

Hope you find the reason for this issue Matt , would be a shame to finish this ownership

It would Joe, although the car is a little tatty on the outside it drives superbly and has been very well looked after.

I'm just a little lost as to what to look for.

Do i really want to fork out for a head swap just on the off chance? - i dont know if i do

Matt, when you flushed the engine, how did you do it?

Also the oil temp will be near 100 degrees or so to get 1.5bar on idle.

Could it be the turbo causing a block when it gets bloody hot??

Sorry Marco, but what do you mean by "glided the engine"?

I dont think it can be the turbo, as it has a seperate feed from the water jacket and then leads back to the bottom of the radiator, so even if it blocked up then the water would still circulate round the engine. ( i may be wrong)

edit: just seen that you meant flush the engine.

I removed the rad completely, put hose pipe into expanison tank and sealed round it, then just flushed with water. The expansion tank was filling faster than it was coming out, but i guess this will be vecause the pump is not spinning??

All you've done there is prove that it's not completely blocked, but if it was the engine would be toast anyway. It must be partially blocked somewhere which is only causing a problem at high revs / high flow rate.

how old is the stat,might be stuck half way

Brand new stat. Will start taking water pipes off tonight.

You had a new water pump i think Matt.What about sealent gunk or anything you can think off stuck part way across a flow way.
I also think the turbo cooling needs looking at as said by Marco.

Must be something lying around somewhere that gets in the way of the coolant, maybe even only when the coolant gets a bit hotter (on track) and makes whatever is in there a bit softer. Can't you install some sort of flow meter in the circuit somewhere?

http://www.flowmeters.com/
http://www.ftimeters.com/pdfs/application_notes/an69620_automotive_racing_engines_mag_meter.pdf

Other than that, if you check by using an garden hose, run it backwards through the system.

Matt... when i flushed mine, the tank was just rushing water straight round the engine and out of the pipe...

i think you have a block some where mate...

problem you will have is the thermostat will not open untill its upto temp...
you need to some how get the water straight into the engine.. not sure how i did mine.. it was well over 2 years ago now.

but what i do know is with a rad pipe off the water should flow out pritty quickly..

crazy idea...

why not put some thing in the coolant system to clear blockages... like Mr Muscle??

thinking about it, i doubt the turbo would be at fault.

DO NOT PUT MR MUSCLE or other household pipe cleaning fluids into an engine, unless you want it to dissolve...

Matt - if you really need to know your oil temp you can stick one of these on the sump:

http://www.temperature-indicators.co.uk/acatalog/Industrial_10_Level_Indicators.html

I've used the mocal equivalent before and they work fine.

I really dont think the issue is with your oil temps though - look to the water system.

hmm...me thinks that is not a good idea...

Silly question: what coolant are you using and what concentration of coolant?

Do you have your undertray fitted? fans working properly etc..

The coolant has been swapped so many times i've no idea. Have tried every variable of coolant though. Right up to nearly 100percent. Fans are fine, no undertray.

100% Coolant, bizarrely, *can* cause overheating. Far better at standard mix: 40% water/coolant, or 50% if you expect a really harsh winter.

Water wetter can help with high rev temperatures, although I suspect you still have an issue somewhere else, the main reason for asking is in case you were just using water which is pretty poor at reducing under-bonnet temperatures.

Mike - as said, try again to clean out using the hose but make sure the water uses the reverse path. There's no use in flushing it out through the 'normal' way as if something is blocking a pipe or hole, you'll only 'squash' it against the narrowing pipe.

Also make sure to 'test' as many separate circuits as possible - just the radiator, the engine block, the heater matrix,... and definately bypass the thermostat.

what pipe would you have to stick the hose in to make the water flow in reverse??

Not done it on the Coupe (didn't do too much really on the Coupe), but did it on the HGT where someone recommended that to me as there was a blockage there. Waterpump: inlet is in the center, so I inserted the hose down that pipe and also disconnected the inlet of the radiator. Didn't go further as it turned out to be 'stuff' near the inlet of the radiator.

Just thinking further (or 'back' really)... the reason why the waterpump vanes got torn off. Might just have been dirt / ... in there or extra resistance because of the decreased flow.

Did a bit of a search on Google and it comes up with loads of descriptions how to flush, most of them pretty much the same. Which probably means the common parts are pretty 'okay'.

http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Cooling_System/cooling_sys_clean.html
http://www.econofix.com/radiator.html
http://peugeot.mainspot.net/tips/cooling_ff.shtml
http://pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&p=157920
http://www.automotiveforums.com/t461426-best_way_to_flush_the_coolant_system_.html

Matt are you 100% sure all the water hoses are OK ?

One of them could be collapsing (even partially) at very high temps causing a flow restriction.

Good luck sorting this out mate.

You may have something there Mike. But surely with all the work thats been done to the car in the last, what? 10 months the hoses must be quite new.

Good shout Mike. The coolant hose of death is new but the others are old so they might be worth replacing. I also have a 2 part coolant system cleaner which i'm going to try, but i need to bypass the thermostat somehow (can i just use a t piece??) I could do with getting hold of a silicone hose set if anyone has one they don't want!-

Matt, the club has some sets of silicone hoses for sale. Talk to Porkypaul.

Many many moons ago, I had a similar problem which turned out to be a radiator hose which had delaminated internally - at low revs (and therefore flow) it was fine, but once the flow rate increased it folded into itself and everything overheated.

How did you diagnose it barnacle?

Don't recall; it was my father's car and thirty years ago. It may have been as simple as finally noticing that one of the pipes went floppy when hot.

Ok thankyou. Might be a good idea to replace them all as a matter of course anyway.

fairly cheapish fix matt - at least then you can eliminate them as the issue

I took my turbo coolent feed of today,it was on its way out.Thats on a 53,000 coupe.Thats a very busy area up there by the stat etc.

Whats the latest then guys?

Matt is staying at my house next friday and wont be leaving until i sort it .

Brand new Intercooler installed;



While at John's, it's also going to get a new oil cooler, radiator, engine flush and a new silicone water hose kit.

If that doesn't cure it, nothing will

Ah if that don't cure it, fit some snow chains and it's off to Lapland. Problem cured

gentlemen,it will be sorted.

Just incase anyone is still interested;

I went down to Midlands Car Servicing on Friday and had a new radiator, silicone hose set and oil cooler installed. (And Aux belt)

The coolant hose of death was very soft, and could quite easily collapse under suction. (Despite being brand new from Fiat 6 months ago)

I have also noticed that recently my temperature gauge has been bouncing round allover the place, as if there was air in the line. It has now started acting as normal again.

Also, when left idling, with the expansion tank cap off, the coolant would boil over and spill out the tank.
Now these jobs have been done, the coolant no-longer boils over on idle, which can only be a good thing.

At this point i have a suspicion that the coolant hose of death was to blame, it may possibly have been kinked or bent, or collapsing under load.

I have also installed another water temp sensor in the coolant hose of death, which gives a very accurate account of whats going on.



Only thing left to do now is get on a track day and test it.

good luck with it Matt, if anyone deserves a good run you do

Haven't had a fully working car in nearly a year now Steve!

Fingers crossed, I am still aiming to get us all on track for the battle royale

Your going down Flea!

Oh I dunno, some recent figures...

60-100: 4secs

30-130: 12.7secs

Still a bit more to come when I fix the boost issue.

I don't mind giving you a head start

Why don't you want to enjoy it yourself if you do (fingers crossed) have a problem free coop at the end of all this time, hassle and additional expense to get things sorted?

Failing that, then yes, I could be still interested

Good stuff Matt - let's hope the old girl behaves for a while now

I my opinion.the coolant hose of death could be installed wrongly very easily.I put my hose of death in 2 or 3 times before i was happy.

Yeah very true Joe, it's nigh on impossible to see the routing of it.

I normally tie string to a hose,so i have the return route sorted, But i was so worried about the job,that i forgot the basics i know from working on plant machines.
Stupid really.

Mike, hope the bad luck is over and your splendid car no longer just boils water.

GOOD LUCK and looking forward to reading future positive messages!

I've just remembered that when my CHOD went there seemed to be lots of cracks on the inside of the hose (none visible on the outside though).

Any chance it could have been getting squashed by something at the back of the engine?

We think this was the cause.

The pipe was very Proccy like(Limp)

Not only that but it twisted easily with no shape or structure.

Ontop of this,the engine was fine until that hose was replaced,.
so the plot thickens.