So it begins...Fiat Coupe 20VT into Alfa Romeo 147

Hello Boys and Girls!
Thought I'd introduce myself - I'm Matt and currently the owner of a 2003 Alfa Romeo 147.
Having owned the car for the last year I have grown to love the alfa; I've changed the interior, added a custom built car computer with a 7" touchscreen moulded to the dashboard.(happy to add pictures if needed, complete front end respray.. general servicing, vented and drilled discs with fast road pads, induction kit...
Unfortunately my big issue was power - 1.6 - 120bhp of raw... noisy unreliable power!

Some would say that i should scrap the car but having spent so much on the car already i figured i would see this one through!
I've looked into the 1.8 & 2.0 versions of the 147 engine.. reaching a measly 150bhp in standard form and expensive to tune further.

I was then pointed in this direction... Will a fiat coupe engine fit? i think so!
I've only test drove a 20vt so far but that blew a turbo on the drive
Would i cause an uproar by dismantling a 20vt?

no mate.

people have put the 20vt into a Quantim Kit car, a Mk2 punto, Alfa 145's, Bravo's and even Mk1 Punto's.

Go for it!!

there is enough info on here for you to do so.

you should have enough room to do it.

you will need to take the 147 dash out and get rid of a lot of excess crap the 147's have.

it will be an interesting project!

Thats handy to know Marco.. thanks for the heads up!

From what I've gathered the hardest part so far is going to plumbing in the electrics. With the Alfa using a canbus system and the fiat system not.

Unsure how i can get around that?

in terms of it actually fitting.. i can use 156 engine mounts on the coupé engine which should bolt exactly in place of the old one (should!)

Drive shafts are a bit tricky... using a 156 and a lancia driveshaft on the gearbox side.. smic fits in place...
as should everything else... i hope!

wont be doing this for a couple of months yet.. but wanted to shed some light onto the electronics side of it

If the Alfa uses canbus to turn on the lights (i.e. controller unit at the back and a single power lead rather than individual leads to each light), you're going to have fun; your only real option is to replace all the wiring with the Coupe wiring instead, as a complete loom.

You're *definitely* going to need a detailed wiring diagram(s) for the Alfa. And one for the coupe, but that's available in the FAQ section, or in a lot better detail for club members.

I'd be tempted by stand alone engine management for the lump and CANBUS for the rest

Is there not a V6 option for Alfas?

Yeah there's a v6. But the 147 gta would be amazing with a 20vt lump!

The 3.2 v6 isn't very tuneable without spending mega bucks

Thanks for replying guys.

Those were my thoughts Barnacle... which scares me slightly as its a severe amount of work!
I'm tempted almost to get the engine in the bay.. plumbed in and hand it over to an auto electrition to figure it out.
As i can really see me struggling with this!

I did a bit of Googling last night and found JasonHillAO's 145 20vt conversion which uses the same engine as mine and I believe uses canbus as well.
(i cant link but google it... page 4)
Looking at that they mention a yellow box which I assume is an immobilizer box on the coupé?

and someone says "After you have put the coupe ECU and yellow box onto/into your 145, take both the coupe key and 145 key to a lock smith and have a new 145 key cut but with the transponder copied off the coupe key."
Is it really going to be that easy? so I could infact use the body ecu from the Alfa and the engine ecu & immobilizer from the Coupe... coupled with swapping the transponder from the keys. Have i got this right?

I had thought of going a standalone management system but little point as I'll be looking for 300bhp max and anything else is more than achievable with a piggyback ecu.

They do a v6... 3.2.. i do believe the coupe is faster than the 3.2 having had a little search!
its certainly cheaper to get more power!

The Alfa 145 and the Coupe shared the same CODE system which is why it looks that easy. I think the 147 will be like my 156 with a completely different CODE system.

Remote Central locking on the Coupe tends to be an alarm function (so you have a separate key and fob) and the UK ones tend to have either META or Scorpion aftermarket alarms. I can't imagine that part being compatible either.

hmmm so not quite as easy as I'd hoped then!
The alarm side I'm not too fussed about.. im not even worried about the immobilizer as I had planned to have a Clifford fitted after the engine build. It's just getting it fired up for the first time.
I'd also planned on removing the air conditioning.. so I guess its one less thing to plumb in!

Does anyone have a link to the wiring diagram for the coupé?
just the engine loom would be handy... that my only real reservation about this project

I hope you go ahead and do the conversion. You'll be a pioneer and get mucho respect.

Only indirectly; the remote locking is built in but is triggered by a signal (contact closure) from the alarm system.

Hi Matt,
The engine will fit,this isnt the issue.

The issues you will incur is that the 2002+147 has different suspension.
The easy conversion was on the 145/6 as they shared the same platform.
The engine should bolt in place with no issues,but the subframe will need to be changed which im sure wont fit the 147.
Youll have to run the coupe box and shafts and the shafts are different to the hub flange on the 147.
Also the abs pickups are different iirc the 147 runs a bearing type abs pickup whereas the coupe runs rings on the cv's.
Running the coupe hubs means you need coupe brakes and steering rack.Then youll have to fit the brembos which means youll need coupe wheels which are 4 stud.
You may get away with using the gtv6 flanges if the bearings will fit into your hubs.
Gear selection will have to be changed to the coupes cables and also the exhaust.
One problem may lead to alot of others.

The brake servo and master cylinder is also may cause issues hitting the inlet manifold.

As for the electrics,there the easy part.Good luck.

So my options are to fettle the subframe a little (or a lot?)

There is a forum member by the name of gent who has done the conversion and appears to be using the original alfa hubs and wheels... he advised -

ENGINE MOUNTS - ALFA 156 2.4 jtd.
Drive Shafts- Lancia K and Alfa 156 2.4 jtd.
Intercooler - Fiat Marea 1.9 td100.

I've fired off a few questions but seems to be no issues with brake servo or master cylinder....


Exhaust issues I expected but a fabricated stainless steel one would be made up...

I'd planned on fitting a fmic as well.. but need to check clearances etc as well.
Looking for a coupé which has has the majority of the engine work done so I don't have to mess about with tuning after swapping the engine over. Its just less to worry about when starting it for the first time!

As you can tell.. i'm not that mechanically minded but i do have a dad (MOT tester by trade and self confessed nutter) and brother (engineer) who should be able to help out!

I can only assume hes running the alfa jtd box and not the coupe one.
I ran the jtd box for a month and it was fun but not the best for traction.Also the shafts were worryingly thin in comparison.
The other error is to use a box that runs a push clutch.Ensure you use a pull clutch.

Hes using stock calipers which again would suggest the box isnt using the coupe shafts.

Matt,

It may be worth contacting alfachris on this site. He has lots of experience transplanting Coupe engines into Alfas so could be in a position to help


Jon

We have some progress!!
I Collect the new Fiat Coupe 20vt Turbo on Thursday

Currently has the following mods;

Blue flame Exhaust
Motech Chip
Gizzmo MS-IBC Boost Controller(4 settings 13psi 15psi 19psi and 19.9psi but the last setting the car splutters - I predict fuelling?)
HKS dump valve with hard pipe
Stage 2 Turbo - 360 bearings + 60 trim wheel

Power run graph proving 260 BHP before turbo was upgraded.

Planned changes;
engine clean
engine service - oil, filters, plugs etc
Red silicone hoses through out
oil catch tank
fuel regulator and gauge
oil cooler
front mounted intercooler
wrap manifold
then finally.... remap

Will update thread with pictures once its back!!

barbz runs 5stud alfa pcd 5x98, but then again he uses porsche brake calipers

Hi, I`m Gent.
I managed to make conversion of my 147 TS Selespeed to 20VT.
Now I`m driving it without any issue, everything works great, I dont even get any error in my car! I had to break 1xKappa 20vt, 1xCoupe 20vt and 156 2.4 jtd to make this engine fit in my car. If someone want to know more about this send me PM.

PS> Sorry for my English!

You mean that entire electrics under dash of your 147 works as it should, no matter 20VT engine inside??????
Don't think that it's impossible, but it's really hardly achievable......
Conversions like this always requires entire interior strip out, dashboards, side panels......it's not just straight swap of the engines.....

I conect the 2 ECUs (some wiring) and Imobiliser of 20vt, and it s not necessary to take off the dash, or any thing else.

Just reading this, very interested to see this happen... is it any further along Alfa_Owner ?

Its only been until late that we've been able to make any movement on this... In the lead up to Christmas we removed the engine, drive shafts etc etc from the Fiat Coupe.
All this has been sat feeling sorry for itself..

The alfa has been sorned in prep for taking the engine out.. we're in a position to do that now - just the cold stopping us.
I've been busy to late and changed jobs and not had much time to dedicate to this. I was hoping that next week we start taking the Alfa engine out and stripping the interior (to be leather trimmed)
We can then start to look at lining the engine up into place and a more detailed look at what this is actually going to entail!!

Don't worry... its slow progress but we'll get there eventually!!

This weekend (only a few hours because we had other car issues) - Everything photographed, bumper off, lights out, water drained, radiator out, air con drained and radiator out, exhaust manifold loosened off and some of the wiring disconnected.

We've got a lot left to go; disconnect inner drive shafts, pull exhaust off, disconnect power steering and remaining parts of the engine loom. No doubt a few pipes we've missed as well. Slow and steady and at least we've started so no going back now!
By the time i get back in the evenings it always too dark to do anything productive. So will be a weekend job until the weather turns!

Arranging for the other engine to be delivered to the new house and i can start prepping that for cleaning and painting... and also port and polishing.
May change all the gaskets and give it the once over as its spent 4 months on a pallet in the cold under a tarpaulin.

Onward and upwards though!!

As richb says very interested in this.
The engine in my Alfa gt blew last year ,only the 2.0 jts,but very expensive to replace,a 20vt lump would have been superb,what a nice drive that would be,,,,,,or would it??
Paul

Well i'd imagine it'll be ace once its done!
just skeptical about the wiring side.. but i'll tackle that as i get to it!

I think a 20vt powered Alfa GT sounds a lovely package,,,,when I break the engine in this I may try that next time. Lol

Agreed, that would be very special, the engine choices are what have put me off GT's....

What are the differences in terms of the engine bays??
Surely it'll be very similar to what i'm already doing?

I would think so, are the GT and the 147 the same underneath ?

Pretty much as far as I know,,however I'm probably wrong
A modded 20vt powered GT mmmmmmm

Hi guys, to let you know I'm on board with this project as the main spanner guy, we're at the point of lift in the engine and sorting the running gear now so that all the plumbing and wiring can be routed safely and neatly, the route we're going though is to do a complete experimental build to get it running then strip down and spend on the engine/gearbox rebuild, the brakes will be uprated to the 156 GTA 330mm Brembos (so better than the coupes), I'll be doing pics too so hopefully this will all be useful for others of a likemind too.

What Smaky said...

PICS :-) Glad to hear it's still on track!

Ditch it all, and stick a Rover V8 in it.



Naaah. Seriously interested in seeing the result of the transplant.

Rover v8 not my cup of tea I'd rather a coupe engine in there any day

Fitting 330 discs is really pointless, it will add extra unsprung weight, damn heavy, and unless you will be on track running full slick tyres as i said is pointless. Anyway just Alfa 166 calipers is good idea.
Don't forget that braking system stops the WEIGHT of the car, not it's BHP.....there is no big difference for your brakes if your car is 200 or 400 hp.....but huge if weights 150kg more or less.....sometimes rotating engine internals counts in this equation, but with small amount......
When braking system for a car is calculated, first thing in the equation is M....mass.....

I reckon if Father Ted was still here, a Mass would be the first thing in his equation.

Interesting point, though... as Ferrarist points out, the brakes are stopping the mass of the car, not the power of the engine.

However, they're turning kinetic energy into heat (half mass * velocity^2) and they need to dissipate that heat or things get a bit fraught. A more powerful engine tends to have things moving faster, more often, so there's more heat to get rid of. A larger disc is beneficial there.

Yes - dissipated heat. The driver must decide how the car will be used, tyres.......and always compromise must be done....
However i prefer 310 disks(166's calipers) with race spec pads for my trackdays......

Thought i would just check the curb weight of the car to see the differences between the 156 (the car the brakes came from) and the 147

156 - 1,530 kg
147 - 1,360 kg

I see no real issues considering i'm using uprated discs, pads, brake pipes, and likely better brake fluid than as standard. I'd be worried if it was an out and out race car but its just a weekend run about

Shall be keeping an eye on this, although bit of a shame you're using the pre-facelift 147. So fugly compared to the facelift.

Haha I actually prefer it!
Besides who's going to expect it to be a little pocket rocket?

Sacrilege!

OK so in your arguement you completely agree with us, the 330 brakes are going on for 3 reasons, the difference in engine weight between the 1.6 TS and the 20VT, the weight of other equipment being installed to the car, and that the camber angle of the uprights which these brakes fit to will be better for the tyres with all this extra weight. So to let you know the difference, M has increased by almost 300Kg and if you drove my tool car around you know how crap the stock brakes are with that much extra weight pushing you.

Just incase anyone was interested



Engine is finally in.

Just to add all the shiny bits once we've sorted the plumbing and wiring out.

Interested!
Nice rocker and coil cover paint job!
Good luck with the rest of it and keep the pics coming.

Cheers Brilly1uk

As soon as i have more pics i'll be back!

I've found a solution to my engine loom & dashboard woes as well!

Subscribed
I'm doing the same in a Marea saloon.

Oooh, I have a Marea estate I was contemplating doing the same with!

What model/spec is yours Steve?

The marea is a pov spec 1.6 sx.
Even has solid discs on it!
My coupe is coming off the road in July for a full resto, so I'm dropping all the Running gear in the marea.
Coupe engine is stock at present,
but I've got enough goodies for about 350 ponies

Sorry for hijack

Just FYI, there is a fair bit more involved than just swapping the running gear, if your starting with a 1.6sx.

20VT in a 147 should be interesting, I always felt my 147 was a lot lighter through the twisties than my coupe.

Ninja

I always wanted to do that when I was running a Marea 20V and a Coupe 20VT at the same time.
I remember my wife (at the time) mentioned it to the garage that I fancied a Marea "turbo" and they phoned my up because they had a diesel for sale!!!!

I said; "er no, not THAT kind of turbo, thanks..."

Still love the Marea though- I'd buy another- love those lights...